explaoin this to me

Pan Zareta · Postby **Pan Zareta** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:06 pm

Roger wrote:I don't think that there was a QH breed when he was bred. I have the Denhardt book "The King Ranch Quarter Horses". His sire was Hickory Bill a TB and his dam was a Dr. Rose mare and I am pretty sure she was an un-registered TB. I'll double check and if she is not, I will correct myself.

Hickory Bill's not entered in the main body of the ASB, but he may have been JC-reg. for racing purposes only (names unpublished in the ASB). Ditto his dam. Second dam has a produce rcd., appendix ASB 7 recording her earlier foals. But the appendix was officially discontinued beginning w/ ASB 8. A handful of offspring of appendix mares did have produce of their own recorded in the main body of that and later vols., but I haven't found Lucretia M. and/or her foals among them.

Estimating Old Sorrel's degree of registered (TB), unregistered (TB), & unregistered 'Quarter type' blood is like trying to nail jello to a tree. Start w/ how much faith to place in the notarized affidavit from the son of his grandsire's (Peter McCue) breeder that P McC was actually by the unreg. Dan Tucker, but falsely registered w/ the JC as by Duke of the Highlands. Then scrutinize the unregistereds. (For starters, the commonly accepted pedigree for Jack Traveler doesn't even begin to pass muster by dates.) And the degree of TB blood in Steel Dust, Old Billy, et al. has been a matter of endless speculation, but little hard fact, for how many generations? Etc.

I don't recall Denhardt making any definitive statement re. the Dr. Rose mare in the King Ranch QH book, but at the moment I can't locate my copy. :oops:

Does he elaborate on her breeding?

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:05 pm

The Dr. Rose mare was supposed to have been from a bunch of mares that Dr. Rose bought in Kentucky for $125 per head. He later became horse poor and sold a carload to a rancher in Alice Texas. She was bred to Hickory Bill and foaled the sorrel colt called "Old Sorrel"

That is info from the Denhart book.

Which was a Quarter Horse and which was a TB in Old Sorrel's pedigree is kind of a blurry line. There was so much paper swapping, apendix, fence jumping, and ringers running it is a miracle that anything made it to paper.

Roger · Postby **Roger** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:35 am

After looking at the book, the Dr. Rose mare was TB, but the Kentucky mares lost their identity in Mexico. Hickory Bill was an ap. TB. (my mistake), but the Old Sorrel was more TB than QH and my QH friends who love to talk about crazy TB's hate that . This really is a great forum, thanks. This discussion helps prove that the JC stud book is the best we have, but it has a lot holes in it. I think I've read where it is correct about 80% of the time. People who put a lot faith in pedigree study as a primary source of information in making a breeding, should consider that what they are looking at is inaccurate data 20% of the time.

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:58 am

That supports my rationale that going back more than five generations in the modern TB is of limited use, and conformation and traits should ALWAYS be considered in a mating.

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:42 am

Going back to the King Ranch Quarter Horse book, Old Sorrel was not selected because of his breeding. He was selected because he had all the traits that were needed to be a superior King Ranch working horse, and was a great working horse, before becoming a herd sire.

Ability, conformation, cow sense, Old Sorrel had the whole package, and this is what the King Ranch breeders saw and tried to reproduce.

Which is exactly Madelyn just said but in a longer winded way.

Pan Zareta · Postby **Pan Zareta** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:52 pm

Roger wrote:...the Old Sorrel was more TB than QH and my QH friends who love to talk about crazy TB's hate that .

Are they still clinging to the notion that the QH is something other than a specialized subset of the TB? If the Dr. Rose mare was indeed TB, then a conservative estimate of OS's registered TB blood would be ~81% (52/64ths).

Thanks to you & XFF for the info from Denhardt's King Ranch QH book! Since I still can't find my copy (moved a couple of mos. ago & some bks are still packed), can one of you tell me whether or not a date was cited for the shipment of Dr. Rose's stock from KY to TX/MEX?

TIA,
PZ

Roger · Postby **Roger** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:58 pm

I could find no mention of a date, but the Old Sorrel was born in 1915 and there was a comment about the mares were an older sort so I'm guessing it would have been 1895-1900.

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:18 pm

Goodness, you don't suppose the Dr. Rose shipment could be traced? Or at least some educated guesses about the bloodlines of those mares?

What Ky studs were active during that time period?

zinn21 · Postby **zinn21** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:31 am

Fascinating stuff but a challenge to absorb for me. Perhaps if we looked at a pedigree, what you are all saying might come alive.

Below is a link to a pedigree. Please review it and share what you think.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/two+one+gun

Pan Zareta · Postby **Pan Zareta** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:10 pm

xfactor fan wrote:Goodness, you don't suppose the Dr. Rose shipment could be traced? Or at least some educated guesses about the bloodlines of those mares?

If he bred or owned TB's recorded in the ASB a list of them could be compiled, but it would be a tedious undertaking since there's no index of any kind to owners/breeders.

zinn21 wrote:Below is a link to a pedigree. Please review it and share what you think.

Olin Gentry would probably be satisfied :wink:

(to paraphrase: take back to a sire the best blood of his dam).