Need advice on buying first broodmare

[wgc517]

Hopefully I can learn from some of the breeders out there. In the next year or so I will be buying a broodmare(s). My goal is to breed to sell. I would like to get any opinions on how to select a good broodmare (not too expensive) that will increase my chances of success at the auction when it comes time to sell the yearlings. I understand how hard it is but somebody out there must be doing something right or there wouldn't be so many breeders. I just want to get started, take my time and learn from others mistakes.

[Derring]

Do you have a stallion in mind to which to breed or thinking about the mare first?

[ragsdaj1]

wgc517,

If I had the benefit of starting over I would plan a vacation around one of the larger Kentucky sales like the January mixed sale. Last January a Theatrical mare sold for 2k. I know nothing about the mare other than the sale page and selling price. Unless she was very slight or injured I think someone got a bargain that day. Had I been in attendance she might be in my pasture now. I think if you spent 4 or 5 days at a mixed sale you could trailer home a lot of hope.


JonR

[madelyn]

Good advice, ragsdaj1... there are even mares already in foal, stud fee paid, at those Jan/Feb sales. A pal of mine picked up a Really Nice Jade Hunter mare last Feb at Fasig-Tipton, in foal to Seattle Fitz, for $2500. The colt is really nice. Great deal. Saved a LOT of $$ and the mare alone was worth that.

[Plentee]

LOOK FOR MARES BY MR PROSPECTOR LINE SIRES WITH DEPUTY MINISTER ON THE MOTHERS SIDE. BREED TO STORM CAT SIRES. THIS IS THE LINE OF THE FUTURE.

SAMPLES ARE SINGLETARY BC WINNER AND NEW COMMER BAFFERT 2YEAROLD E Z WARRIOR

ALSO ANY VALID APPEAL MARES AND WORLD APPEAL ,PROPER REALITY MARES WITH DR FAGER ON THE BOTTOM SIDE BREED TO ROBERTO LINE SIRES RED RANSOM OR DYNAFORMER

[henthorn]

Big names and graded stakes winners pull a lot of weight on the catalog page. Usually a foal's catalog page does not reveal any of the sire's family race record other than his own, and the pedigree tree only goes back about four generations. The dam's progeny and race record, and that of the 2nd and 3rd dams, is what is most evident, as well as the best racehorses by the stallion. The more solid black type with GSW you can find on the page, the better. And if the dam comes from a young family with lots of well-bred and well-mated fillies, there is a good chance of improvement with each subsequent year. If searching for a broodmare at auction, also watch for fertility issues, running age foals that didn't race, and those that couldn't run well as warning signs.

[louis finochio]

Purchase mares that have been dominant producers and decend from the same dominant producers.

Just because some mares decend from the chefs of the breed and have failed to produce anything of note, dont buy those types of mares as they have been culled out of their former owners broodmare band.

Breed those producer mares to proven stallions, and you will take a short cut through the woods to grand mothers house.

[Joe]

I agree with Louis. Depending on budget, you can sometimes get a young mare with a producing female family, most notably a producing dam and a producing sister. Examine the pedigree and think "Who could I breed this mare to?". Do research, and most of all insist on a good looking mare. If you are going to sell you want a good looking product of a mating.

I've done ok at the track where I've gotten well-bred racemares who were winners and ended up with injuries. I've got one beautiful Crafty Prospector mare I got that way who is producing great looking stuff. She won at Churchill and AQU with 90+ Beyers and ended up with a bum knee and running for $4000 at Philly. Good family, good ability, very decent price, nice foals. I bought her for $2500 and just got her appraised for $30,000 since I've sold both her foals for $30,000 each as weanlings.

We also have a December Mixed sale here which is especially good for bargains. Many people need to resolve partnerships and settle taxes and forego reserves on mares, many of them in foal with fees paid.

Many people make the mistake of getting a cheap mare and then breeding to an expensive stallion. I'd rather go the other way, if needed. Mares are the key. Get a good mare and all kinds of deals open up to you.

Good luck and skill.

[madelyn]

I agree with Joe on this one. A GOOD mare is the key. Price is not always a reflection of quality. The stallion managers mostly will take your check and breed the mare whether or not they "like" the mare.

I have gotten great deals on mares but that doesn't make them "cheap" mares. If there is no blacktype in the first or second dam, PASS on the mare. Are the elements of her pedigree well matched? Is there an opening to add a sireline to her that might be productive?

To put that extremely simplistically, if you get a granddaughter of Storm Cat out of a mare with Mr. Prospector in her lines, can you find a suitable stallion? There was a horse recently like that, with Seattle Slew as the broodmare sire of the stallion, I believe, and In Reality on the damside, and the problem with the mare was that nearly all of the major bloodlines available to breed to were already there. It would be nearly impossible to breed that mare without inbreeding.

[kimberley mine]

Price is not always a reflection of quality.

I don't know what your goals are, but you can find some fantastic deals if you take your time and do your homework.

I've touted this mare before, but she's an excellent case in point:

Daughter of Wolf

This mare has had a foal every year without fail, every foal made it to the races (save her 2yo), nine of her ten foals were winners, and she has total progeny earnings in the catalog of almost $900,000. She sold in foal for $4000. Why so cheap? She is older (18), with an unfashionable pedigree, and although she has a blacktype runner it's cheap blacktype at a 2nd tier track. Given her past produce record and assuming good health, it's reasonable to expect another 2-3 foals from this mare and that they would be solid, consistent runners.

[louis finochio]

Madelyn: Dont be shy about inbreeding, when you are inbreeding to those superior producers it will pay dividends.

For an example of inbreeding pull up the pedigree of BOY in 1946 Bloodroot. For those that dont have faith in close breeding this will weigh on their minds.

[madelyn]

Thanks, Louis, but your example of a 1946 breeding, when the breed was new, is pretty ugly and unapplicable. I can't believe you, of all people, with all your trumpets regarding unsoundness, would now recommend inbreeding at those levels.

You are, yourself, a great voice, screaming about unsoundness. How could you possibly recommend inbreeding in a breed that you so obviously, and vociferously believe to be so flawed?

Not to mention the ungodly crosses of Phalaris....

[sparta]

A few mistakes I made when I was very young and dumb (now I'm just old and dumb):

Looking only at pedigree, and ignoring conformation. I'd get seduced by stuff like the fact that Miss Grillo was the third dam of the horse or some idiocy like that, and buy horses that didn't have a race record or were cripples. It didn't take me long to become more pragmatic and less romantic....

I like a broodmare who, even if she hasn't glorified herself on the race track, has managed to get there and withstand training and preferably win. Likewise for her dam. Yeah, there are a lot of exceptions to this rule, but on the whole, a horse who can race is more likely to produce a horse who looks the part than one who couldn't get off the farm.

I believed whatever I was told by consigners. There are a lot of honest horsemen out there, but there are also a lot who aren't. Until you figure out which is which, be cautious and don't believe everything (actually, don't believe anything) you hear.

A mating that looks good on paper must be followed up by a review of the physical characteristics of the sire and the dam. This sounds so simple, but you'd be surprised at how many people ignore it.

[louis finochio]

Madelyn: Lets set the table for Bloodroot 1946 BOY.

Bloodroot was line-bred 5 SS X 5 DS to Bend Or.

Bloodroot was line-bred 4 SS X 5 SS to the mare Padua that descends from the Bend Or sire line.

Bloodroot has 4 crosses of the Bend Or sire line thru the above.

Bloodroot is line-bred 5 SS X 4 DS to St. Angelo that descends from the sire line of Galopin.

Bloodroot is line-bred 5 DS X 5 DS to Galopin.

Bloodroot has 4 crosses of the Galopin sire line thru the above.

Galopin and Bend Or are not related, so these 2 sires lines would be an outcross mating.

In todays time frame we are seeing 8-12 crosses of the Phalaris sire line in matings that are producing unsoundness in the breed.

Thats the difference that the TB breeders of today cant remember the way those TB of the past were bred who had soundness plus.

[CA Michael]

If one thing alone is clear in today's yearling market, it's that conformation is king. Whether in NY, FL, KY, LA, NM, or CA, the most athletic and correct yearlings sell best--irrespective of their catalog pages.

If you want to make money selling through the market, then provide the market what it wants. It's pretty much that simple.

Simple, but not easy, though. While it's tempting to rely ONLY on catalog pages as a guide, what you really need to look for in a mare is an "A" body combined with a pedigree you can afford. Check the sales history of each mare you are interested in, including her immediate family. Once your list is narrowed down to a handful, talk with their previous owners about the conformation of each foal, including a rundown on its defects (they all have them!). Do your homework BEFORE you open your wallet.

Keep your possibilities as wide as possible--don't make hurried or snap decisions--enlist the help of friends with experience--BEWARE of bloodstock agents--and remember the EASIEST part of the TB business is the initial purchase. Once that is done, you have to LIVE with your decision for years, so be as sure as you can with it.

Good luck.