brood mare purchasing - am I missing something?

[imnumberjuan]

Any thoughts on broodmares who have a record that includes a produce record with several unraced foals? I ask only cause I thought I saw one go for a million +, "royally bred" as my buddy would say - but had several unraced foals, a couple unplaced...

I understand the attendees of a Keeneland sale and myself have a "slight" difference in bank accounts, but wouldn't most people be concerned about a non-producing mare?

[Heidilady]

I think it depends on some things like what the rest of her family's doing because sometimes blood'll come through later but I wonder if it's more to do with who the mares've been bred to. It's quite possible someone's been making bad breeding decisions or whoever's been trying to race the foals isn't doing a good job.

Of course they could also be trying to breed her to someone better or who boosts a broodmare's value at a sale so they can turn around and sell her in foal later.

They could also figure that it's better than putting a couple million in a pile and setting it on fire but I personally prefer to invest if I ever have that much to risk. It's possible that you missed absolutely nothing and they just made a bad decision. If they figure they can make more money later they might try to swing a profit even if they don't think the foal's gonna do crap.

[Tairaterces]

Could you please provide a hip number for this broodmare you described.

Thx.

[Roguelet]

I, personally, think looking at a catalog page can be pretty worthless because it doesn't tell the whole story on a specific horse. Everyone jumps to the worst conclusions without having any idea of what might be really going on. I TRY really hard not to just jump to conclusions... if there's a horse I'm interested in after looking at bloodlines or conformation or whatever, but there are question marks in the "page," I try to find out the facts before condemning that horse.

However, I know I am in the minority on how I approach things in this game, so my opinion on this probably doesn't carry a whole lot of merit.

2 Examples:

1.) When people say "I would never breed to an unraced or unplaced stallion because they're unsound" that strikes a personal nerve wtih me. Certainly, there are stallions who are unraced or unplaced due to unsoundness... but then there are others who are not getting a fair chance due to someone's misconceptions. Our stallion was unplaced in one start. He is conformationally correct, sound, and throws good bone and soundness in his offspring. He was bandage bowed before his first start... 100% human error, no fault of his own, yet he's going to be branded as "unsound" by someone who just looks at him "on paper."

2.) We have a mare who's page would look quite similar to the one you're referring to. She's had 5 foals. One was placed but a non-winner in many starts. He did have talent but there were many management issues along the way that prevented him from ever really doing his best on the track. He retired sound as a 5YO, passed a very extensive vet check, and is now owned by someone who is training him to use as a high level dressage/hunter horse, and she is IN LOVE with him and SO impressed with him. The mare's next 2 foals were scooped up by people who thought their movement, etc. was of superior quality and wanted them specifically for dressage, h/j, etc. Next one is a 2YO who we are sending to be broke now, but he was almost scooped up by someone who wanted him for a h/j as well... these are all different people, they just see something extraordinary in the way these particular horses move. Something happened and they could not complete that sale, so this one might actually make it to the track after all. So, "unraced" does not equate to "unsound horse that can't get out of it's own way and could never make it on the track." In this mare's case, it equates to "such nice moving, good looking foals that someone has already scooped them up for other disciplines before they're old enough to even go into race training."

And yes, it would be nice if they went to racing homes if you look at it from a financial standpoint, where we have the potential to earn breeders awards, etc, but if someone is drooling over one of our homebreds, check in hand, excited about how wonderful they are, wanting to give them a long career and love them and take care of them, we're making that sale, no matter what it will do to the future page of the dam... that's just about the last thing on our minds at that point.

OK, end of opinionated little mini-rant...

[imnumberjuan]

I can't find it.... ARGH! I was taking a mini-escape in my office at work, and it was either tuesday or wednesday.... which sale? I can't remember...

[imnumberjuan]

Roquelet ... your right, I may be testing the soundness of my ankles on this one.

I also forget the customers at a big sale aren't working just off of a catalog page.

As for your mini-rant, point is also taken.

At the moment I am two weeks away from "retiring" my mare from racing, to which I think I'll give her at least one year "off" before attempting to breed her.

A couple of my associates have commented on her, and I have told them I am intending to breed her, mostly to race for myself. If nothing comes of it then ok. She'll always have a home, as she is now part of the family. She has not a mean bone in her body (her ears pin back, she is annoyed and the worst that'll happen is she will nudge you).

Her conformation is correct, and she is beatifully proportioned, though a little on the small side.

My friends when hearing of my thoughts of breeding her, have questioned my sanity. Her record - she is over a grand a start including a horrific 4 year old year (11 starts - 0 - 1- 0), is respectable she has 6 wins and several places and shows (argh darn 4ths). But in that there are also a few episodes with jockeys (3 mounts in 5 weeks prior to being suspended for drug use).



I also used the same logic you pointed out - I have looked at buying a buddy for my mare (almost had one - could be the one that got away). At the closing weekend at Northlands in Edmonton, a trainer had a few fillies for sale. One she had picked up from a trainer in hastings who sends her the less able to see if she can get a win, if not sell them to the chuckwagons or the B tracks around here.

The one filly had several sisters who were stakes winners, and had a 2 year old full sister place in a stakes the weekend before (god I love the internet). he filly in question though had a record of 10 starts 1 win from the year before. Looking at the trainer that sent her to Northlands, he is hard as far as training goes (drill em ) and the trainer that had her at Northlands well, she isn't the greatest (is it the horse that makes the trainer or the trainer that makes the horse?).

At any rate she was sold before I could make my mind up (I had informed the trainer on the filly's recent family history in the staks placing) she was gone.

Ce sara.

whoa- looks like I am ranting as well?

[henthorn]

I'm of the "never say never, and never say always" camp. I'm sure if statistics are applied, one would find better odds of runners and quality racehorses if one avoids mares and stallions who are unraced or unplaced, and chooses only breeding stock with consistent talent and productivity.

But we are all dreamers, or we wouldn't be in this business. And statistics are not based on individual circumstances, but on facts and probabilities. If one is very strict and adamantly maintains his guidelines, he's more likely to make a profit. If one varies from his guidelines only for very good reasons, he also is more likely to be profitable.

However, most of us don't exercise the logic and self-control we should, since we allow our emotional attachments, fear and greed to get in the way; and our results are anecdotal, or hit and miss. And because we don't precisely follow a pattern, we don't learn from our mistakes or "lucky guesses".

[Marsalon]

In the auction ring "unproven" is superior to "disproven."

The sizzle sells the steak.

Hope often gets a better price than soap.