narrowing things down...

[witherbee]

Well, we are narrowing choices down for Miss Ardent. I'm thinking of going to Trippi (even though he is over our preferred cost). We are trying to stay away from Northern Dancer and to get some of the old lines in (Buckpasser, Tom Rolfe, Tom Fool etc), but are having a hard time. She goes well to Mongoose, but I'm just not thrilled with his physical type and just can't get excited about him. She also goes well to Gibson County, and he is very impressive to look at, but was more of a Califormia-raced horse and we are leary of that. I also am considering Graeme Hall - he is incredible, but maybe not as good of a match to the old lines that we are looking for. I also really liked Alke and his sales results are good (we are looking to breed to sell as weanlings). Any comments on these stallions (Trippi, Graeme Hall, Alke) or any others here in FL for this mare? Thanks!

[pokeyman]

Are you breeding to race or sell?

What did the mare do on the track in terms of class?

Was she a stayer or sprinter?

Was she dirt or turf?

What has she produced?

After you answer these questions, it will be a lot easier to narrow down your stallion choices!

[kimberley mine]

Well, we are narrowing choices down for Miss Ardent. I'm thinking of going to Trippi (even though he is over our preferred cost). We are trying to stay away from Northern Dancer and to get some of the old lines in (Buckpasser, Tom Rolfe, Tom Fool etc), but are having a hard time.

Have you looked at Put It Back?

Sweetsouthernsaint also has some old Florida bloodlines (Tom Fool via Tri Jet).

[witherbee]

We are breeding to sell.

What did the mare do on the track in terms of class? not much lol! She raced 6 times on the dirt at ages 3 & 4, but did not win. No turf tries.

Was she a stayer or sprinter? I have no idea, my reports do not say.

Was she dirt or turf? dirt

What has she produced? She has had 3 foals, 3 starters 2 winners. Here 2002 gelding by Sword Dance (IRE) was unplaced in 10 starts going from 6f to 1 1/16ths. Her 2003 filly by Sword Dance (IRE) has made $21K so far with 1 win, 3 seconds and 1 third out of 13 starts in the dirt. Her win came at 5 1/2 f. Her 2004 colt by West Acre has raced 4 times and has one win so far at 6f - a maiden claimer ($25K) on the dirt.
She does have a couple of nice Blue Hens fairly close up in her pedigree (Missy Baba and Courtly Dee) and her dam was G3 placed.

Put It Back is not a good physical match for her and is not getting enough for his weanlings - we are looking for a good weanling average price. We'll have to take a look at Sweetsouthernsaint... I also like High Fly with her - any thoughts of his potential "hotness" as a freshman sire? Thanks for the input!

[pokeyman]

Thank you for the information!

Well, if you are breeding to sell and want to stay in FL...You should DEFINITELY consider Montrbook. He fits your criteria in every way....

Trippi will give you Northern Dancer which you mentioned you were trying to avoid...His weanling median price for 2006 was $15,000. They upped his 2007 stud fee to 10,000 so that's not much of a return.

I would venture you would NOT do well trying to sell a Mongoose weanling. His overall sales numbers are not that impressive (putting it nicely).

Graeme Hall brings you to Northern Dancer again. His median sales weanlings this year was $8500. Off of a $7500 stud fee, not much of a profit...

Alke brings you to Northern Dancer again. However, he DOES appear somewhat hot and for a $4000 stud fee his weanling 2006 median is a wopping $34,000!

Sweetsouthernsaint, I like to race but not sell. His sales numbers are not great. Plus, they didn't raise his stud fee for 2007 which tells me he's not creating THAT much buzz...

High Fly is linebred to Northern Dancer 3 x 5 so I definitely don't think you would want to do that....

Possible recommendation would be Pico Central. He has the old blood you're looking for. No weanlings have sold at auction yet so not sure there...

Another possibility..Peace Rules. He does have 1 ND in his 5th generation but his weanling median is 3 x his stud fee! Good sale value....

You're right about having a hard time avoiding ND while still breeding to sell.

If you can swing it, Montbrook does seems perfect in every category for you. He would be my top selection.

Hope this helps...Good luck!

[witherbee]

Thanks Pokeyman. I do like Montbrook but was staying away because of his stud fee $15K is just too far over our budget (we have 4 mares and are just "regular folk" with 9-5 jobs lol). Maybe we'll revisit Alke. I sure was impressed with him looks-wise. I'll take a look at Pico Central again. Any thoughts on High Fly?

[pokeyman]

Thanks Pokeyman. I do like Montbrook but was staying away because of his stud fee $15K is just too far over our budget (we have 4 mares and are just "regular folk" with 9-5 jobs lol). Maybe we'll revisit Alke. I sure was impressed with him looks-wise. I'll take a look at Pico Central again. Any thoughts on High Fly?

Good morning! I hear ya about budget! We are in the same boat....

Well, as mentioned, High Fly is linebred to Northern Dancer 3 x5 so you would bring in two more crosses to a stallion you were trying to avoid....None of his weanlings have gone through the ring yet so no prices there. Plus, his sire stands (in CA) for the exact same stud fee of $5000. Furthermore, his sire's weanling/yearling median is UNDER $5000. Not a good sign for High Fly.

I just checked your mare's pedigree...duh. Should have done that first! She is a Mr. Prospector great grandaughter so I, personally, WOULD NOT breed to a MP stallion like Alke. No way! However, this is just my personal bias. I think there are far too many MP/ND cross horses and we, as breeders, are breeding ourselves into a corner. As a side note, we are breeding our non-MP/ND mare to a MP stallion but I will outcross again if I get a filly as to not double up.

If the resulting foal is a colt, well, his pedigree will be a dime a dozen. If it's a filly...who are you going to breed her to with the market saturated?

However, I'm sure you could get away with it because nobody else seems to care about doubling and tripling up on MP and ND!

Plus, if the foal is a FL bred and you nominate to all that FL stuff people probably won't care. Alke DOES have great sales numbers.

Good luck!

[KAL]

I think the current pedigree "wisdom" would indicate a Bold Ruler line(preferably through Slew) over the Fappiano line (ala Bernardini, Evansville Slew, etc) I am not entirely sure if I agree... I do agree they have to be physical mates.

Perhaps, in this vain, Essence of Dubai could be a consideration and, provided he looks the part (I haven't seen him) and you like the pedigree, might would be my first choice. (Having Hartley De Renzo "assisting" is a plus.) While you are at it, a certain poster on this forum swears Full Mandate is the next coming... so, you might give him a look. I would look at both and try to talk to Randy or Dean and discuss with them. Particularly, I would what to hear the "scuttlebutt" about the current foals... if a couple run well, you are looking at gold.

If you like Alke, I would take a look at Fire Slam... I hear he is nice and Vinery usually does a nice job of supporting their stallions.

Sweetsouthernsaint has the old lines you seek... plus, going forward, if you get a good one, it will sell. However, don't look for help if you get an average one.

Good luck!

[witherbee]

Thanks again for the advice. Unfortunately we are staying away from Hartley and DeRenzo - at least for this year. We had issues there last year and my husband is adamant to stay away this year. Also, Full Mandate is wonderful, but is a bit to rugged a type to go with this mare - we're looking for more refinement. Essence of Dubai offers the refinement, but he is a bit of a nut. That wouldn't stop me as this mare is sweet and docile so we'd probably get a baby with a decent temperament, but I'm leaning more towards Trippi, High Fly, Graeme Hall or Alke. If we did go to Hartley & DeRenzo we'd probably look at Omega Code.

I'd love to go to Spanish Steps (they've got that nice buy back program), but according to Werk she's a 0SW to him. I also like Bwana Charlie - he's a nice big stallion and is a multiple graded stakes winner/placer. I just don't know how marketable he'll be or how well supported.

[witherbee]

I also took a look at Proud Accolade for this mare. He is an outcross from the Mr Prospector line. Here is what the Hypo Mating shows:
Inbreeding: Raja Baba: 4S X 3D Dosage Profile: 5 5 4 0 0
Bold Ruler: 5S X 4D Dosage Index: 6.00
Missy Baba: 5S X 4D Center of Distribution: +1.07
*Nasrullah: 5D X 5D

Do any of you think he will be a good commercial sire? He won the Champagne Stakes (G1) defeating Afleet Alex and also won a shorter stake - the Hutcheson (G2). She goes well to him in Werk as well. His first crop will be weanlings of 2007. He is pretty weak on his dam's side though.....

This is so hard for this mare! All of our other mares are booked, but I just can't seem to get a handle on poor Miss Ardent lol!

[billl]

If you are breeding to sell, I have to completely agree wit you. Proud Accolade is a very interesting cross and excellent choice in commercial terms based on his race record and the farm where he stays.

I think you have a mare with a lot of potential, and I know this pedigree very well. Good luck!