I have a Theatrical mare ("Variety") that I would appreciate breeding suggestions for this year. The mare is currently in Kentucky. She has a strapping, big boned 2yo by Vicar, a weanling colt by E. Dubai, and is in foal on a 4/15 cover to Pleasant Tap.
I tried every which way to get her to Arch, but he is booked full. Not that it matters all that much, but the foal would have had an A++ + 2,373% Werk Rating.
Theatrical has started to move up in the broodmare sire listings, so any suggestions would be gratefully appreciated.
Worksoplad
Theatrical Mare
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Worksoplad
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Theatrical Mare
"Who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, but he who destroys a good book kills reason itself." John Milton.
mating
When I check the G1 Goldmine there are about 10 graded winners with Theatrical as the dam sire. Four of the 10 are Hail to Reason line stallions and two other carry Turn-to in some other form.. One is out of Numerous, doubling up the broodmare Special. Four of them return Northern Dancer.
I understand why Arch makes sense to you. Action This Day and Rock Hard Ten at 10K and 50K may be too little or too much. Old Ky Home is a bargain basement Kris S. Then there is Darby's old boy Repriced, a son of Roberto. Other than Dynaformer, I don't know of another Roberto son still standing in KY.
I understand why Arch makes sense to you. Action This Day and Rock Hard Ten at 10K and 50K may be too little or too much. Old Ky Home is a bargain basement Kris S. Then there is Darby's old boy Repriced, a son of Roberto. Other than Dynaformer, I don't know of another Roberto son still standing in KY.
We really need more to work with... like, are you breeding to sell or race? A little info about her conformation would be beneficial, as would size and bone. Then throw in your preference for stud fee range...
It does appear you are not opposed to first or second year stallions... which could be good...
She does have a lot of turf in that pedigree... which, unless you plan on racing yourself and running the foal on turf, does elimate a stallion or two. However, I am not sure you can have success by using a non-turf stallion... personally, I would look for versatility.
Immediately, when I saw hpkingjr's post, I thought of More Than Ready... but then again, I tend to always think of More Than Ready... I've liked him since day one...
It does appear you are not opposed to first or second year stallions... which could be good...
She does have a lot of turf in that pedigree... which, unless you plan on racing yourself and running the foal on turf, does elimate a stallion or two. However, I am not sure you can have success by using a non-turf stallion... personally, I would look for versatility.
Immediately, when I saw hpkingjr's post, I thought of More Than Ready... but then again, I tend to always think of More Than Ready... I've liked him since day one...
Re: mating
hpkingjr wrote:When I check the G1 Goldmine there are about 10 graded winners with Theatrical as the dam sire. Four of the 10 are Hail to Reason line stallions
It's coming from Hail To Reason, but I don't recall them coming from Kris S. I think most of them are Halo line.
Looks like you're aiming for the 10-25k range?
Devil His Due or Southern Image if you want to go Hail To Reason.
I'm not normally one for contributing to the Ashford foal factory, but I'd look at Powerscourt as well.
Broken Vow and Eddington might also be worth a look.
Star Dabbler
Richland has a brand new stallion, Star Dabbler (Saint Ballado) at 7.5 K if you want to try a new guy again.
I am using an older G1 Goldmine so Sam's memory may prevail over the older version however, Sharp Performance (Kris S); Aiglonne (Silver Hawk) and Dublino (Lear Fan) were all graded winners from Roberto line studs. My comment on Arch was based on the presence of both a return of Hail To Reason and Northern Dancer in his pedigree. I agree with Sam that Halo might work just as well, I just did not see any in my version of Goldmine. Nice mare, let us know what you decide.
I am using an older G1 Goldmine so Sam's memory may prevail over the older version however, Sharp Performance (Kris S); Aiglonne (Silver Hawk) and Dublino (Lear Fan) were all graded winners from Roberto line studs. My comment on Arch was based on the presence of both a return of Hail To Reason and Northern Dancer in his pedigree. I agree with Sam that Halo might work just as well, I just did not see any in my version of Goldmine. Nice mare, let us know what you decide.
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kimberley mine
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I don't know your budget or intentions, but I like this mare with either Cozzene or Leroidesanimaux.
One horse I *don't* like her with is More Than Ready. If you skim through his progeny, you may notice that of his best runners with a close male line to Northern Dancer, the ones with that strain via Danzig (Danehill, Pine Bluff, Danzig) are by far and away the best. He hasn't done as well with Nureyev strains, either through sons (Theatrical) or daughters (Kingmambo).
The mating with Cozzene is outcross in 5 generations, but if you look back 2 generations further than that it brings in all kinds of linebreeding to several seriously classy individuals--Nasrullah (Never Bend and Grey Soverign), Prince John (via Riverman and Ride the Trails), Turn-To (via Sir Gaylord and Hail to Reason), and Precipitation (Chamossaire and Sassafras). Although there is plenty of speed in this mating, there is also plenty of extremely high quality stamina. Cozzene has two foals out of Theatrical mares in the database, one of whom has won over $100k to date.
One horse I *don't* like her with is More Than Ready. If you skim through his progeny, you may notice that of his best runners with a close male line to Northern Dancer, the ones with that strain via Danzig (Danehill, Pine Bluff, Danzig) are by far and away the best. He hasn't done as well with Nureyev strains, either through sons (Theatrical) or daughters (Kingmambo).
The mating with Cozzene is outcross in 5 generations, but if you look back 2 generations further than that it brings in all kinds of linebreeding to several seriously classy individuals--Nasrullah (Never Bend and Grey Soverign), Prince John (via Riverman and Ride the Trails), Turn-To (via Sir Gaylord and Hail to Reason), and Precipitation (Chamossaire and Sassafras). Although there is plenty of speed in this mating, there is also plenty of extremely high quality stamina. Cozzene has two foals out of Theatrical mares in the database, one of whom has won over $100k to date.
I'm not sure More Than Ready has been bred to enough Theatrical mares to get a good indication... having said that, even when I posted earlier it was as a response to hpkingjr's post. In most cases, I don't see a Theatrical mare being a good physical match with MTR (and vice-versa).
I am somewhat guessing this will be a breed to race... and probably in the 10 to 25k price range. But, even so, I still would be reluctant to give advice without knowing more about conformation, size, and intent.
I do like Cozzene... like him quite a bit, but obviously have reservations about him if looking for sales ring or dirt (especially with this particular mare)... I also am somewhat concerned whether he will be able to service many (if any) mares this year.
I am somewhat guessing this will be a breed to race... and probably in the 10 to 25k price range. But, even so, I still would be reluctant to give advice without knowing more about conformation, size, and intent.
I do like Cozzene... like him quite a bit, but obviously have reservations about him if looking for sales ring or dirt (especially with this particular mare)... I also am somewhat concerned whether he will be able to service many (if any) mares this year.
Third phone conference today... I love speakerphone and mute...
Anyway, Madelyn, your buddy hpkingjr. already mentioned Action This Day.
I haven't seen ATD, so I couldn't recommend based on physical... and since he came in as I was "exiting", I haven't given him a good look as to his projected sire appeal.
Have you, or anyone else, seen him? How does he compare with Arch? Anyone have any thoughts on ATD's distaff side?
I bet he is still no Rocky... by the way, gotta' love that Lord at War... and why is it that you wanted one.... who ya' gonna breed her to?
Anyway, Madelyn, your buddy hpkingjr. already mentioned Action This Day.
I haven't seen ATD, so I couldn't recommend based on physical... and since he came in as I was "exiting", I haven't given him a good look as to his projected sire appeal.
Have you, or anyone else, seen him? How does he compare with Arch? Anyone have any thoughts on ATD's distaff side?
I bet he is still no Rocky... by the way, gotta' love that Lord at War... and why is it that you wanted one.... who ya' gonna breed her to?
Last edited by KAL on Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Okay, had to look at Castleton's website... eventually my phone conference will end and I'll be free...
Anyway, I remember why I was concerned about Action This Day... and it is very appropriate with this mare... I felt that with his pedigree, you had better have a dirt-pedigreed mare if you wanted a chance at a dirt-oriented horse. With a turf pedigree, my fear would be that ATD would further the foal's bias toward turf.
It will be interesting to see how the ATD's do on poly... but that is a different conversation. Personally, I think the ones bred to be versatile (with the more dirt-oriented dam side) will be okay to very good, but those with turf-biased mares will still need the green stuff.
Anyway, I remember why I was concerned about Action This Day... and it is very appropriate with this mare... I felt that with his pedigree, you had better have a dirt-pedigreed mare if you wanted a chance at a dirt-oriented horse. With a turf pedigree, my fear would be that ATD would further the foal's bias toward turf.
It will be interesting to see how the ATD's do on poly... but that is a different conversation. Personally, I think the ones bred to be versatile (with the more dirt-oriented dam side) will be okay to very good, but those with turf-biased mares will still need the green stuff.
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Worksoplad
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Theatrical Mare
Thanks for all of the replies so far.
To answer some of the questions, I intend to race the foal, although my hobby is rapidly getting out of hand -- I have four mares in Ky, 3 4y0 already racing in California with 4 2yo just getting ready, 3 weanlings and 4 more on the way!!!
The mare is 16.1 hh, with no obvious flaws in conformation. Her 2 foals are both good looking, with plenty of bone.
Finally, my stud fee range is $10 - $25k.
I have no aversion to first year sires. Other sires I have used in the past: Stravinsky, Street Cry, Aptitude, E Dubai, Pleasant Tap, Perfect Soull and Jade Hunter.
Thanks again everybody
To answer some of the questions, I intend to race the foal, although my hobby is rapidly getting out of hand -- I have four mares in Ky, 3 4y0 already racing in California with 4 2yo just getting ready, 3 weanlings and 4 more on the way!!!
The mare is 16.1 hh, with no obvious flaws in conformation. Her 2 foals are both good looking, with plenty of bone.
Finally, my stud fee range is $10 - $25k.
I have no aversion to first year sires. Other sires I have used in the past: Stravinsky, Street Cry, Aptitude, E Dubai, Pleasant Tap, Perfect Soull and Jade Hunter.
Thanks again everybody
"Who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, but he who destroys a good book kills reason itself." John Milton.
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Worksoplad
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Theatrical Mare
Of the suggestions so far, I like Cozzene but he is 27 years old. That alone sows a seed of doubt.
I like Action this Day and Rock Hard Ten, but think RHT's stuud fee is a bit steep for a new sire. I like the foal profile with ATD though
I love Devil his Due. He was real hard knocking himself and seems to be passing that on.
I like Powerscourt alot. My only question, since I don't have access to G!-Goldmine, is does Sadlers Wells work with Nureyev, notwithstanding the duplication of Special?? I can't recall seeing many SWs from this cross.
The Southern Image profile looks good too, except for the "low" GSV of 61.97, not that I know too much about what kind of an impact that has.
Finally Stormy Atlantic also looks good - although $30,000 is tretching the purse strings as I have already signed contracts on my other three foals with Street Cry, Quiet American and Cape Canaveral. The cross of full sisters Moccasin and Thong from this mating is intriguing. I certainly don't mind croosing ND 4 x 4.
Well, there is still alot to ponder!!!
I like Action this Day and Rock Hard Ten, but think RHT's stuud fee is a bit steep for a new sire. I like the foal profile with ATD though
I love Devil his Due. He was real hard knocking himself and seems to be passing that on.
I like Powerscourt alot. My only question, since I don't have access to G!-Goldmine, is does Sadlers Wells work with Nureyev, notwithstanding the duplication of Special?? I can't recall seeing many SWs from this cross.
The Southern Image profile looks good too, except for the "low" GSV of 61.97, not that I know too much about what kind of an impact that has.
Finally Stormy Atlantic also looks good - although $30,000 is tretching the purse strings as I have already signed contracts on my other three foals with Street Cry, Quiet American and Cape Canaveral. The cross of full sisters Moccasin and Thong from this mating is intriguing. I certainly don't mind croosing ND 4 x 4.
Well, there is still alot to ponder!!!
"Who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, but he who destroys a good book kills reason itself." John Milton.
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kimberley mine
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If you like Cozzene, what about Alphabet Soup? His lone starter out of a Theatrical mare won about $150,000 on the track, he's bringing up his mares 20%, his fee is on par with Devil His Due, and he gets good sound runners. In addition, there is some evidence that he works well with the *Thong line, with very good earners out of Geiger Counter (Mr P - Thong), El Prado, and Alwuhush mares, and 2 good winners ($600k and $60k) out of Afleet mares.
G1 Goldmine
I checked the Sadler's Wells and Nureyev combination and the VGS grade 1 score was 1.53 (150% OF THE EXPECTED GRADE 1 WINNERS BASED ON THE AVERAGE OF THE TWO SIRES). With the quality of the two sires involved, that is a very significant score. There were between 15 and 20 graded winners with these two in the same pedigree.