I'd appreciate input on breeding Two Punch to Ace Up Her Sleeve [Eastover Court X Beware The Ace]. Ace is 16.3 hh and won the tri State conformation class as a yearling.. She has a 5/2/0/1 and a 4/2/0/1 on grass.
griff
2S x 3D to Heavely Cause
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
2S x 3D to Heavely Cause
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
Hi Griff,
I would not recommend inbreeding to Heavenly Cause 2 X 2.
Heavenly Cause was a dynamite racemare, but she hasn't been the greatest producer. Two Punch is her best offspring, and he has been a very good sire, much better than he was as a racehorse. However, he has been known to throw some pretty crooked horses out of mares with correct legs.
I remember Ace quite well from the times when she sold as a weanling and yearling, and she was an outstanding individual, with good size, well balanced, with good bone and correct legs and feet. The same can not be said for Eastover Court, who was huge, heavy, coarse, and crooked legged. He looked more like a moose than a Thoroughbred. Luckily your mare did not inherit his flaws. I think if you double Heavenly Cause 2 by 2 through Eastover Court you stand a much higher chance of inheriting the conformation flaws.
If you are interested in line breeding to the strains behind Heavenly Cause, one horse you might be interested in looking at for your mare is Domestic Dispute. He is out of a Magesterial mare, and Magesterial is Two Punch's best cross. Looking at his pedigree, he has the same Nasrullah/Mahmoud/Teddy/Man O'War cross as Heavenly Cause. I don't think Smoke Glaken was a fluke, and I think DD might cross very well with Heavenly Cause's tribe.
I would not recommend inbreeding to Heavenly Cause 2 X 2.
Heavenly Cause was a dynamite racemare, but she hasn't been the greatest producer. Two Punch is her best offspring, and he has been a very good sire, much better than he was as a racehorse. However, he has been known to throw some pretty crooked horses out of mares with correct legs.
I remember Ace quite well from the times when she sold as a weanling and yearling, and she was an outstanding individual, with good size, well balanced, with good bone and correct legs and feet. The same can not be said for Eastover Court, who was huge, heavy, coarse, and crooked legged. He looked more like a moose than a Thoroughbred. Luckily your mare did not inherit his flaws. I think if you double Heavenly Cause 2 by 2 through Eastover Court you stand a much higher chance of inheriting the conformation flaws.
If you are interested in line breeding to the strains behind Heavenly Cause, one horse you might be interested in looking at for your mare is Domestic Dispute. He is out of a Magesterial mare, and Magesterial is Two Punch's best cross. Looking at his pedigree, he has the same Nasrullah/Mahmoud/Teddy/Man O'War cross as Heavenly Cause. I don't think Smoke Glaken was a fluke, and I think DD might cross very well with Heavenly Cause's tribe.
too close?
Hey Griff
While I like inbreeding to a top female, I would stay away from inbreeding sooo closely to Heavenly Cause. Maybe aim for a solid grass sire that would preserve the balance-conformation. Matching size and type would be important. I would chat with someone in the know about conformation about which I know little.
That said one intriguing prospect in the region is Cetewayo - proven millionaire Graded winner and solid runner in Pa. Outcross - grass potential.
jm
While I like inbreeding to a top female, I would stay away from inbreeding sooo closely to Heavenly Cause. Maybe aim for a solid grass sire that would preserve the balance-conformation. Matching size and type would be important. I would chat with someone in the know about conformation about which I know little.
That said one intriguing prospect in the region is Cetewayo - proven millionaire Graded winner and solid runner in Pa. Outcross - grass potential.
jm
Run the race - the one that's really worth winning.
Thanks for the input.
Cathy I don't suppose it would matter if the Tow Punch X Ace Up Her Sleeve nick is a 2S X 3D to Heavenly cause. Ace is in-foal to Not for Love for 2008 and we do have our mare Perfect Colours schedled to go to Domistic Dispute in late March.
Joltman
I visited God Stone last summer to look at Special Times and don't know how i miissed Cetewayo. Is he a late arrival or did my blinders get in the way?/
griff
Cathy I don't suppose it would matter if the Tow Punch X Ace Up Her Sleeve nick is a 2S X 3D to Heavenly cause. Ace is in-foal to Not for Love for 2008 and we do have our mare Perfect Colours schedled to go to Domistic Dispute in late March.
Joltman
I visited God Stone last summer to look at Special Times and don't know how i miissed Cetewayo. Is he a late arrival or did my blinders get in the way?/
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
Hi Griff,
My poor typing when I said I didn't recommend inbreeding to Heavenly Cause 2 X 2.
You are correct, it would be inbreeding 2S x 3D.
Anyway, the reason I recommended that you not inbreed so closely is not because of Two Punch, it's because Ace's sire, Eastover Court had a *lot* of flaws that your mare doesn't exhibit that I think would have an increased chance of showing up in a closely inbred foal.
I think Two Punch (and quite possibly Eastover Court's daughters) might click with Domestic Dispute because DD's broodmare sire Magesterial has been dynamite with Two Punch. Last I heard, Two Punch is 2GSW/3fls with Magesterial mares - - Smoke Glacken and Marciano. Not bad!
Another local horse with background strains similiar to Heavenly Cause that might be interesting with your mare is St. Averil. St. Ballado has the Herbager/Mahmoud cross plus Cosmah, who your mare also has from Cannonade.
So you are expecting a Not For Love baby? Lucky you! He gets nice foals that are runners!
My poor typing when I said I didn't recommend inbreeding to Heavenly Cause 2 X 2.
You are correct, it would be inbreeding 2S x 3D.
Anyway, the reason I recommended that you not inbreed so closely is not because of Two Punch, it's because Ace's sire, Eastover Court had a *lot* of flaws that your mare doesn't exhibit that I think would have an increased chance of showing up in a closely inbred foal.
I think Two Punch (and quite possibly Eastover Court's daughters) might click with Domestic Dispute because DD's broodmare sire Magesterial has been dynamite with Two Punch. Last I heard, Two Punch is 2GSW/3fls with Magesterial mares - - Smoke Glacken and Marciano. Not bad!
Another local horse with background strains similiar to Heavenly Cause that might be interesting with your mare is St. Averil. St. Ballado has the Herbager/Mahmoud cross plus Cosmah, who your mare also has from Cannonade.
So you are expecting a Not For Love baby? Lucky you! He gets nice foals that are runners!
Godstone
I visited God Stone last summer to look at Special Times and don't know how i miissed Cetewayo. Is he a late arrival or did my blinders get in the way?/
griff[/quote]
I think he is new this year having run forever. Soundness - staying power from the His Majesty line. Kinda depends on what you want. I'm sure there are some who have critiqued him conformationally, I just always start with a real runner when I can
jm
griff[/quote]
I think he is new this year having run forever. Soundness - staying power from the His Majesty line. Kinda depends on what you want. I'm sure there are some who have critiqued him conformationally, I just always start with a real runner when I can
jm
Run the race - the one that's really worth winning.
Cathy D, do you think that the crooked legs come through Heavenly Clause ? We don't often get a chance to breed back a mare like her, but then again down here in Texas we don't have the selection that you do. Two Punch might improve Eastover Courts influence. I do agree that when inbreeding, we need to use the best available and soundness has to be the first consideration, but this baby might be worth the gamble.
Two Punch, all though pretty correct himself, has been known to get some crooked foals out of correct mares. I have seen quite a few over the years that toed out a lot. Some rotated out markedly from the knee, and when they do that, there is nothing you can do about it. He is by Mr. P., who also threw a tendency toward toeing out.
Eastover Court was just plain crooked, and he was an unraced son of Seattle Slew. I don't know who he inherited his flaws from, but he did get size and bone from his dam.
Heavenly Cause was a great race mare, and I'm told she is big, strong, and had a ton of bone. It's not Heavenly Cause per se that I'm recommending against, it is the fact that Eastover Court was in my opinion a poor individual in that he did not exhibit sound conformation traits nor did he prove himself on the racetrack. The object of inbreeding is to concentrate the best genes in the foal. It's just my opinion, but I think you are asking for trouble inbreeding closely when one of the conduits (in this case Eastover Court) is not a sound, superior performer. I think it is more likely to concentrate the worst genes.
Although Mr. P and Seattle Slew has generally been a good cross, I am not aware of any stakes winners combining Two Punch with Seattle Slew. Slew also works very well with Northern Dancer, and Two Punch is well known to cross well with the ND line. Heavenly Cause also had a stakes placed filly by Lyphard. That might be a better direction to look in.
Eastover Court was just plain crooked, and he was an unraced son of Seattle Slew. I don't know who he inherited his flaws from, but he did get size and bone from his dam.
Heavenly Cause was a great race mare, and I'm told she is big, strong, and had a ton of bone. It's not Heavenly Cause per se that I'm recommending against, it is the fact that Eastover Court was in my opinion a poor individual in that he did not exhibit sound conformation traits nor did he prove himself on the racetrack. The object of inbreeding is to concentrate the best genes in the foal. It's just my opinion, but I think you are asking for trouble inbreeding closely when one of the conduits (in this case Eastover Court) is not a sound, superior performer. I think it is more likely to concentrate the worst genes.
Although Mr. P and Seattle Slew has generally been a good cross, I am not aware of any stakes winners combining Two Punch with Seattle Slew. Slew also works very well with Northern Dancer, and Two Punch is well known to cross well with the ND line. Heavenly Cause also had a stakes placed filly by Lyphard. That might be a better direction to look in.
Thank you, Roger!
Although I can't recommend the Two Punch/Eastover Court inbreeding, we do have a new stallion in the area that might offer interesting inbreeding possibilities: Dance With Ravens, who is out of champion and ace producer Dance Smartly and who also comes from a line of ace producers. I was thinking a Regal Classic or Sky Classic daughter might be interesing with him. That gets No Class 3 X 4 through a champion son and champion grand daughter . . . or a Smart Strike mare with DWR . .. hmm . . .
Although I can't recommend the Two Punch/Eastover Court inbreeding, we do have a new stallion in the area that might offer interesting inbreeding possibilities: Dance With Ravens, who is out of champion and ace producer Dance Smartly and who also comes from a line of ace producers. I was thinking a Regal Classic or Sky Classic daughter might be interesing with him. That gets No Class 3 X 4 through a champion son and champion grand daughter . . . or a Smart Strike mare with DWR . .. hmm . . .