Mating advice for Forty Niner mare...

[TB Dreamin']

Anybody have any ideas for good crosses for my mare, Angela Niner, by Forty Niner o/o Valadina? I'm in KY and looking at the $20k and under range. Thanks!

[chicago78]

Your mare has a really neat pedigree, with the 3rd dam being the amazing broodmare Natashka, and the dam of your mare being a full sister to the top European stayer Dark Lomond. Even though she's by Forty Niner, more of a speed influence, I'd say she's crying out for more speed. Coming from a Lomond mare, I'd like to see her with something from the Seattle Slew line, to double up on the My Charmer.

I going to suggest Purge, a young son of Pulpit that won the Cigar mile. His bottom line is straight speed. The only thing i don't love about that hypo mating is that it brings 4X3 to Mr. Prospector, but it did work recently with the filly Baroness Thatcher, who is from the same family as your mare. He stands for $15,000 at Vinery.

[TB Dreamin']

Chicago78-
I was recently at the Open House and got to see Purge, close up-he's really nice-thank you for your suggestions!

I also had my peepers on their new sire, Stormello, and judging from their mating's suggestions, I was thinking that he may be a good cross, too. Any thoughts there?

[chicago78]

I do like Stormello, I just like Purge a little better with her. The Mr. Prospector inbreeding is sex balanced with Purge, which usually works better. I originally thought of her with Stormy Atlantic, but he's $45,00, which is out of the proposed price range. That cross looks great on paper.

Another good cross is Aptitude, who's a proven option at $20,000, though he isn't going to bring any speed to the resulting foal.

[madelyn]

He is below your budget, but pedigree wise I really like Jump Start for your mare.

[Keith]

Hi TB Dreamin!

Stallions for thought

North Light by Danehill-Sought Out by Rainbow Quest

4x4 Northern Dancer
5x5x5 Natalma
4x5x5 Ribot

Congrats by A.P. Indy-Praise by Mr. Prospector

3x3 Mr. Prospector
4x4 My Charmer
4x4 Northern Dancer

Slew City Slew by Seattle Slew-Weber City Miss by Berkely Prince

3x4 My Charmer
5x5 Double Jay

Elusive Quality by Gone West-Touch of Greatness by Hero's Honor

3x3 Mr. Prospector
4x4 Northern Dancer
4x4 Natashka

Speightstown by Gone West-Silken Cat by Storm Cat

3x3 Mr. Prospector
4x5 Secretariat
4x5 Northern Dancer
5x5 Pocohontas

Malibu Moon by A.P. Indy-Macoumba by Mr. Prospector

3x3 Mr. Prospector
4x4 My Charmer

Stormy Atlantic by Storm Cat-Hail Atlantis by Seattle Slew

4x4 My Charmer
4x4 Northern Dancer

Stormello by Stormy Atlantic-Wilshewed by Carson City

3x4 Mr. Prospector
4x5 My Charmer
5x5x5 Northern Dancer

Stormin Fever by Storm Cat-Pennant Fever by Seattle Slew

4x4 My Charmer
4x4 Northern Dancer

Canadian Frontier by Gone West-Borodislew by Seattle Slew

3x3 Mr. Prospector
4x4 My Charmer
4x5 Northern Dancer

Shaniko by A.P. Indy-Sapphire n' Silk by Pleasant Tap

4x4 My Charmer

Silver Train by Old Trieste-Ridden in Thestars by Cormorant

4x5 My Charmer
4x5 Northern Dancer
4x5x5 Ribot

A.P. Warrior by A. P. Indy-Warrior Queen by Quiet American

4x4 My Charmer
3x5x5 Mr. Prospector

Pleasantly Perfect by Pleasant Colony-Regal State by Affirmed

4x4x5 Ribot
4x5 Raise a Native
4x5 Northern Dancer

Keith

[billl]

I like Clossing Argument for your mare. I think he is at $12,500.

[Pete]

Hi TB Dreamin,

Anybody have any ideas for good crosses for my mare, Angela Niner, by Forty Niner o/o Valadina? I'm in KY and looking at the $20k and under range. Thanks!

You don't mention whether this is to race or sell.

Don't repeat the mistakes of in-breeding to Ribot as with Go For Gin and Mizzen Mast. In-breeding should be used judiciously as in the cases I mention below where they are proven beneficial. In my experience, in-breeding Ribot is a weak strategy, better to cross with a stallion of similar qualities like Princequillo.

Storm Cat and some of his sons have done well with Ribot line and Forty Niner. Forestry is out of Shared Interest, a daughter of Pleasant Colony (Ribot line). Giants Causeway has SWs carrying their blood too.

Cat Thief hasn't been very successful EXCEPT with mare that carry Ribot, Forty Niner and Northern Dancer and your mare Angela Niner carries all three.

Of Cat Thief's 5 SWs:
GREAT INTENTIONS, G2 winner of $425,000 out of a Polish Navy Mare, 2nd dam by Hoist The Flag (grandson of Ribot), thus 4x4 Northern Dancer with Ribot and 2 strains of Hyperion.

REGAL ENGAGEMENT, G2 winner of $268,000 out of a Forty Niner mare, 2nd dam by Blushing Groom. Thus by Forty Niner (w/Ribot) 4x4 Raise A Native and 2 strains of Hyperion.

COHIBA MISS, SW out of a Danzig mare, 2nd dam by Key To The Mint (grandson of Ribot), thus 4x3 Northern Dancer with Ribot and 3 strains of Hyperion.

BOLD ANGEL, SW out of a Forty Niner mare, 2nd dam by Danzig, thus by Forty Niner (w/Ribot) 4x4 Northern Dancer, 4x4 Raise A Native with 4 strains of Hyperion.

Obviously he also likes Danzig.

A Cat Thief - Angela Niner mating would be by a Forty Niner mare, Northern Dancer 4x4, Raise A Native 4x4 with Ribot (2 strains) and 2 strains of Hyperion.

I did a cursory check and Cat Thief was bred to 9 Forty Niner mares, 4 winners, 2 SW but some are still young.

Cat Thief has 2 foals by His Majesty mares one that has won $94,000, the other $20,000 from 5 starts, 3 places that I have on the APR.

Ribot Sire line broodmares:
Tazarine is the only foal out of a Java Gold mare, $54,000 winner in 5 starts (at 2).

Key To The Mint, 1 foal, winner of $33,000.

Lost Code, 1 foal unraced.

Pleasant Colony, 3 foals, 1 2yo of 2007 and a winner of $180,000.

Cat Hop just turned 4, has 4 wins, $72,000, by Silver Ghost, 4x4 Raise A Native and Hoist The Flag.

Catch Me, 6 wins, $168,000, 4x Raise A Native w/Ribot (through Dynaformer).

The point is simple, Cat Thief has underperformed exept with mares that have bllod similarities to your mare. I didn't look to much in depth but they seemed to get good sales prices as a group. Two strains of Hyperion is a plus (compared to > 2).

Other sons of Storm Cat might fit her as well and be better commercial fits. Hope this helps.

Good luck,

Pete

[Keith]

Here are some crosses with Forty Niner mares


1. Lady of Venice by Loup Solitaire-Lacewings by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Lyphard and grandaughter of Lear Fan who is by Roberto

4x4 Northern Dancer through Nureyev and Lyphard
5x5 Nashua through Gold Digger and Bramalea

winner of $1,118,171

2. Laity by Pulpit-Tour by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Full Pocket and grandaughter of A.P. Indy who is by Seattle Slew

3x3 Mr. Prospector through Preach and Forty Niner

won Cradle S. and John Battaglia Memorial H.

3. Trip by Lord at War-Tour by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Full Pocket and grandaughter of General who is by Brigadier Gerard

4x5 Ribot through Con Brio and Tom Rolfe

winner of $888,773

4. Mass Media by Touch Gold-Sultry Allure by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Buckfinder and grandaughter of Deputy Minister who is by Vice Regent

4x5 Buckpasser through Passing Mood and Buckfinder
4x4 Northern Dancer through Touch Gold(Cool Mood and Vice Regent)
5x5 Native Dancer through Sultry Allure(Raise a Native and Shenanigans)

5. Island Sand by Tabasco Cat-Sue's Last Dance by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Nureyev and Grandaughter of Storm Cat who is by Storm Bird

4x4 Northern Dancer through Nureyev and Storm Bird
5x5 Graustark through Key To The Mint and Ruritania

winner of the Acorn S. and $1,182,777

6. High Yield by Storm Cat-Scoop The Gold by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Nijinsky II and Grandson of Storm Bird who is by Northern Dancer

3x4 Northern Dancer through Storm Bird and Nijinsky II
5x5 Ribot through Scoop The Gold(Tom Rolfe and Graustark)
5x5 Native Dancer through Natalma and Raise a Native
5x5 Princequillo through Somethingroyal Quillobelle
5x5 Bull Page through New Providence and Flaming Page

winner of $1,170,196

7. Indian Vale by A.P. Indy-Marley Vale by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Hagley and Granddaughter of Seattle Slew who is by Bold Reasoning

4x5 Bold Ruler through A.P. Indy(Secretariat and Boldnesian)
5x5 Jet Action through Fair Charmer and Teo Pepi

winner of $838,601

8. Outta Here by Dehere-Just Out by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Danzig and grandaughter of Deputy Minister who is by Vice Regent

4x4 Northern Dancer through Vice Regent and Danzig
4x5 Raise a Native through Just Out(Mr. Prospector and Native Partner)

winner of $657,167

9. Brownie Points by Forest Wildcat-Stylish Society by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Ack Ack and grandaughter of Storm Cat by Storm Bird

4x4 Raise a Native through Bold Native and Mr. Prospector
4x5 Nearctic through Northern Heiress and Northern Dancer

winner of $535,109


10. Naissance Royale by Giant's Causeway-Net Worth by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Private Account and grandaughter of Storm Cat by Storm Bird

5x5 Bold Ruler through Secretariat and Reviewer

winner of $648,213

11. My Boston Gal by Boston Harbor-Western League by Forty Niner 2nd dam by Secretariat and Grandaughter of Capote who is by Seattle Slew also Boston Harbor is out of a Vice Regent mare.

5x5 Nasrullah through Bald Eagle and Bold Ruler

winner of $500,691

12. Dance To My Tune by Stravinsky-Bandore by Forty Niner 2nd dam by
Nijinsky II and grandaughter of Nureyev by Northern Dancer

3x4 Northern Dancer through Nureyev and Nijinsky II
4x5 Mr. Prospector through Forty Niner and Prospector's Fire
5x5x5 Native Dancer through Raise a Native, Natalma, and Native Street
5x5 Nasrullah through Nanka and Red God

winner of $353,657


Forty Niner mares seem to like Secretariat, Nureyev, Lord at War, Storm Cat, A.P. Indy and Deputy Minister bloodlines.

Stallions you may consider

Castledale by Pientre Celebre-Louju by Silver Hawk 2nd dam by Secretariat
$6,000 Stud Fee

4x4 Northern Dancer through Nureyev and Lomond
5x5 Nashua through Gold Digger and Nicoma
4x5 Raise a Native through Mr. Prospector and Alydar


Touch Gold by Deputy Minister-Passing Mood by Buckpasser
$20,000 Stud Fee

4x4x4 Northern Dancer through Vice Regent,Cool Mood, and Lomond

Dehere by Deputy Minister-Sister Dot by Secretariat
$17,500 Stud Fee

4x4 Northern Dancer through Vice Regent and Lomond

Newfoundland by Storm Cat-Clear Mandate by Deputy Minister
$5,000 Stud Fee

4x4x5 Northern Dancer through Storm Bird, Lomond, and Vice Regent

Sun King by Charismatic-Clever But Costly by Clever Trick
$10,000 Stud Fee

4x5 Northern Dancer through Lomond and Storm Bird
5x5 Nearctic through Northern Dancer and Icecapade

Stevie Wonderboy by Stephen Got Even-Heat Lightning by Summer Squall
$17,500 Stud Fee

4x5 My Charmer through Lomond and Seattle Slew
4x4 Weekend Surprise through Stevie Wonderboy(A.P. Indy and Summer Squall)
4x5 Northern Dancer through Lomond and Storm Bird

Mingun by A.P. Indy-Miesque by Nureyev
$7,500 Stud fee

4x4 My Charmer through Lomond and Seattle Slew
4x4 Northern Dancer through Nureyev and Lomond

Noble Causeway by Giant's Causeway-Mimi's Golden Girl by Seeking The Gold
$5,000 Stud fee

4x5 Northern Dancer through Lomond and Storm Bird
3x4 Mr. Prospector through Forty Niner and Seeking The Gold
4x5 Tom Rolfe through File and Trestle

Purim by Dynaformer-Kirsteena by Lord at War
$10,000 Stud Fee

5x5 Nashua through Bramalea and Gold Digger
4x5x5 Ribot through Arkadina,Tom Rolfe , and His Majesty

Keith

[GreenThumb]

Not in Kentucky but check out Mecke in Florida, this is exactly the type of mare he deserves to have.

chris

[TB Dreamin']

Hi all-I have gotten caught up in this game called life and slacked here....feel really bad.

First, I never clarified that Angela is for commercial sale for now, because I haven't dared venture into racing, but I will, sooner than later...that's another story...my neighbor races out of her barn (barn, being not at the track) and so far has placed first and a third at TP. So, I am wildly interested, as I'm only 10 min. from Keeneland. Another story.

But, just wanted to say, that Angela is due in less than a month and I thank everyone who responded especially the posts that examined other mares by FN who have produced, so that I can "copy" that type of breeding, it is just amazing and I am so thankful that you have written back and offerred all the advice. PLEASE don't think I haven't even looked, quite the contrary, I have printed everything out and am going over everything w/highlighter and fine toothed comb.

Anyone else have any thoughts on (I'm leaning new, young, hot sire) for commercial market for my Forty Niner mare, please don't hesitate to write-I love reading and learning every single thing I can.

[Pete]

Hi TB Dreamin,

Breeding for the commercial market is very differrent from breeding to race.

Contrary to a belief held by some, commercial breeders ALWAYS desire to get the best and most sound race horse possible but your primary concern is to breed a well conformed, good sized individual.

I know that I wrote about the affinities for your mare but commercial breeders must consider conformation first and pedigree elements are secondary.

All the hot young sires are booked by now. In fact, I don't think that there are any new stallions that represent any real value to breeders. Over the past 5 years the stallion farms have dramatically increased the fees for new stallions because their first crops were lucrative for breeders and effectively they're taking a bigger piece of the pie.

I would consider well established sires who are showing stability in their sales. Silver Deputy and Cozzene are two examples of excellent sires that can get top quality race horses and they have fees and sales records where breeders can make a profit.

Examine stallion sales records carefully for their trend. Be advised that some foals are 'sold' to manipulate sales results.

You might also consider stallions that are on the bubble, in their 3rd and 4th years with their first crops to race soon. The problem of course is that you're really betting that the stallion will be successful and only a small percentage are.

Good Luck,

Pete

[TB Dreamin']

Thank you Pete-I really appreciate all of your input. I thought for commercial sale, one of the best ideas was to breed to a new, "hot" (for the moment anyway) sire. That way, when I go to sell as a yearling (which is my plan) the sire's offspring would not be old enough yet to "break" him, so to speak, and I would have the best chance to make some money.

I am not going on that alone, however. I always go to see the stallion I choose, in person, to gauge conformation, personality, etc. I also take into account my mare and maybe things I would like to improve in her w/the choice of stallion. And, I also look at pedigree, to see which stallions or lines, historically, have done the best w/my mare's family or her sire. (broodmare sire) Hope I am saying that correctly.

So, I thought if I could figure out which stallions seem to cross well w/Forty Niner mares, that would be the best that I can do and A.P. Indy sons and Stormy Atlantic sons seem to be everyone's choices. And also Pulpit. Do you think I am missing anything here...other than the fact that it's a big gamble?

Would you choose Silver Deputy or Cozzene for her over say, Stormello, Purge, or Stormy Atlantic?

Thanks, Pete-I really appreciate your advice.

[Keith]

Stallions to consider

Anasheed-$5,000
Artie Schiller-$15,000
Badge Of Silver-$15,000
Castledale-$6,000
Cuvee-$10,000
Dehere-$17,500
Jazil-$12,500
Oratory-$5,000
Scipion-$6,000
Slew City Slew-$6,000
Touch Gold-$20,000
Tribal Rule-$5,000
Smooth Jazz-$3,000
Wilko-$10,000

Keith

[Pete]

Hi TBDreamin’,

You’re mentioning different (but not mutually exclusive) breeding strategies.

1 - Breed to a 'hot' new stallion
2 - Breed based on nick.

Higher new stallion fees have left less room for breeders to make money. When both mare and stallion are unproven she may remain that way as in the case of Angela Niner who has 4 foals, 3 by unproven stallions (at the time she was bred) and the 4th is by Go For Gin who had only young 3yos when she was bred.

Pedigree is overrated in the creation of race horses. Someone had the idea to inbreed Angela Niner to Ribot (4x4x5), a sire with know character issues and this strategy has failed. The expectation that any affinity that A.P. Indy has with Forty Niner mares will carry to the next generation (inherited affinity) is wishful thinking. Build your horse based on conformation and attributes and then make sure that it fits on pedigree.

All thoroughbred breeding is a gamble. The 'hot' new stallion phenomena doesn't necessarily last more than the first year - if that. With the new and improve pricing you'd better make the right choice.

It's important to note that most new stallions will get their share of winners so it's not a necessarily a debilitating strategy and you’ll generally do better with a proven mare.

Angela Niner has been bred as if she is going to produce turf runners but most of the top turf runners in her family were European bred.

The BEST stallion that you can breed to is one that has a strong commercial presence, is highly proven and has a stud fee that leaves you a good chance to make a profit. I mentioned Silver Deputy and Cozzene as examples of older stallions that aren't cheap but meet these requirements, not necessarily as potential mates.

A mare’s commercial success is increasingly based on the performance of her foals and you’ll need to find the best proven stallion that you can afford for Angela. She does have 2 youngsters by Mizzen Mast that could help or hurt her by the time you would be selling a foal.

Regards,

Pete