Breeding back to same sire

[Altanbarr]

My first try at breeding a thoroughbred should bear fruit in April. I am breeding to race. Assuming this was a good mating pedigree-wise and the foal turns out well, is there any good reason not to breed the mare back to the same sire?

Since I am new to the business, any advice would be appreciated.

[larrygene]

My friend, if its your horse and your money you can do whatever you want!!! Enuf said

Larrygene

[ageecee]

I hate breeding back to the same sire. Hate it hate it hate it..

[imnumberjuan]

Altanbarr - I am going through the same thing - my first mare is going to the shed this february.

The thing I have looked at is, I realisitically won't know what I have until (touch wood) 3 years but more likely 4 - 5 years from now. I have already looked at next years matings, if everything goes ok. Right now I am leaning to breed a complete outcross vs. the "nick" I went with (the Nick in question has led to 13 winners from 14 foals to date), further research showed similiarily shaped mares to mine - ok before I get off track...

A question I have asked myself is what is - say E.P. Taylor, thinking in 1963 - by this point Northern Dancer may have been at the track - to breed Natalma back to Nearctic?

Or AP Indy, by the time he was 4 Weekend Surprise was returned to Seattle Slew.

As Larrygenne so succinnctly said - its your mare, your money. I don't think there are any wrong answers, but if you hit a breed back that works why change? I occasionally see a catalog page such as this http://www.barretts.com/Catalog/catjan08/pdf/425.pdf - they hit a mating that "works" (when the 2 year old has only earned $ 29 K at the track without a win)

[AscotStud]

I hate breeding back to the same sire. Hate it hate it hate it..

Ageecee,

Could you elaborate a little more. People who don't like to breed back baffles me, in my mind they are pretty much saying I made a mistake with who I bred to last year and I better fix it. If the mare matches well and produces a great looking foal why would you not want to go back to that sire. Makes no sense to me.
I have a mare who is in foal and a full sybling to the foal she is carrying placed in a G2 at Del Mar this summer...are you saying I should go to another stallion and not try for another full to that filly?

If you're in the I'll breed to the new guy every year mind set, than I understand what type of breeder you are and see where you're coming from.

[Rokeby Forever]

I hate breeding back to the same sire. Hate it hate it hate it..

Ageecee, you've been eating too much hot sauce. If a breeding is successful, you wouldn't want a future full sib?

Why do you think breeding today sucks? Some broodmare and some lesser stallion will produce a nice foal, and right away, the broodmare owner will "upgrade" for commercial value. Why not stick with what works?

[larrygene]

Roke, I couldn't have said it better!!!!

[ageecee]

I just dont like it even if its a successful mating. I especially dont like breeding back 2 yrs in a row to the same sire. If a mating works and the foal goes out and runs out some money then you want to breed back to that sire thats fine. But how many people breed back to the same sire 2-3 years in a row? Why do they do this?

[bdw0617]

see Danehill.. 8 times. apparently danehill's full brothers didn't amount to a 30 pack in the stud barn. he more than made up for them however



EP Taylor believed tried and ture the multiple mating theory.


if not for going back to the same sire we would not have northern dancer.


because sometimes, you just don't get it right the first time. it all comes down to how much do you trust yourself and your work and research. if you are convicted that this is a stone cold lock to produce a good one or this is the "one", you milk the well until it's dry.

[valjoe]

look what those folks are doing with Tranquility lake

After Market(KY), 03 Colt By Storm Cat
Jalil(KY), 04 Colt By Storm Cat
Inflection Point(KY), 05 Colt By Storm Cat
Unnamed(KY), 06 Colt By Storm Cat
Unnamed(KY), 07 Colt By Storm Cat

[Altanbarr]

Thanks for the feedback. Since the mare I am breeding, Korolena, is a half sister to the dam of Ferocious Won, I bred her to Lite the Fuse. So I am already copying someone else's successful breeding. An alternative I am considering is Albert the Great. He is a big sturdy racehorse and some size could help this mare. Korolena is from the same female family as Nobiz Like Shobiz.

[larrygene]

Altan, if your going to always 2nd guess yourself in this game I would advise that you go do something else!!!! NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING about mating 2 horses is absolute correct and totally scientific!!! It's all speculation, a little intuition, and alot of luck. If you like Albert the Great and you want to breed to him then go right ahead. You won't be breaking the law or be put in "dumbass breeders" jail!! One of the fun things about this business is exploring the unknown. Who knows what you will end up with. Again I say, and not to be so coy, but its your horse and your money. No one has the right to chastise you for any decision you make concerning your horses!!!! Enjoy that small freedom knowing you are in someway the creator, whether good or bad.

Have fun with you mare and her babies,
Larrygene

[DDT]

bdw

Northern Dancer was the result of the first Nearctic/Natalma breeding, none of the others approached the talent of Northern Dancer, on the track or in the shed.

DDT

[Cathy D]

Sometimes breeding back is a good thing, and sometimes it is a mistake. Some of the greatest horses came into being because of breed-backs.

Northern Dancer's sire Nearctic was the result of of a breed back. The first one was apparently awful, got all the worst genes from sire and dam, and accomplished nothing.

Sadler's Wells, Nureyev, and that whole stallion family wouldn't exist if not for breed-backs. Rough Shod II visited Nantallah four consecutive breeding seasons, and got champion Mocassin, Ridan, and Thong from these matings. Bull Hancock had a lot of faith in that cross, because he didn't wait to see how it turned out before sending her back to him.

Native Dancer was one of about eight full siblings. Alfred Vanderbilt definitely believed in going back. Only the one, Native Dancer, became an outstanding runner.

Man O'War is another that resulted from a breed-back. I believe he was the second product of the Fair Play- Mahubah cross. His sister Masda was the first.

I think results can be better if you are using very high quality stock and have seen a few foals from the mare, and have a better idea what she throws to. That said, my mare's first two foals were by the same sire but that was because he was retirement age, so it was a now or never situation. Unfortunately, the cross did not work with her, so it turned out to be a poor decision on my part.

Since you have already produced a nice horse from your mare, sending her back to him sounds like a good idea to me.

[imnumberjuan]

larrygene, I think the dumbass breeder jail is right beside the dumbass jockey jail...