Breeding recommendations: What do you think?

[ZiaLand]

I recently had some mating recommendations done by a local pedigree expert, which turned out to be very beneficial because my most questionable mare (Glorieta4 in the database) he had bred, so he was very aware of the strengths and shortcomings in her pedigree. Although her pedigree doesn't look very impressive, her sire, Look See, was a leading sire in NM with somewhat similar breeding to FuPeg. He died very young (9) in a pasture accident with only 5 crops produced. Glorieta was one of his last foals. Her 2nd dam was one of the most successful racing mares in NM in her time, and produced two fairly talented regional stakes horses.

He is strongly recommending Glorieta be crossed on Storm Cat bloodlines. I want to produce a NM bred, so the pickings are a little slim. Here are his suggestions, and I'm going to add a recent arrival, Stagecoach, as well.

I'm looking for some opinions on which stallion would be the best cross with Glorieta (at least on paper)? This will be her first foal. I'm breeding for regional sales.

Devon Lane
Storm Ashore
Elegant Cat
Seacliff (a Valid Appeal, not a Storm Cat)
Stagecoach

Thanks!
Laurie

[henthorn]

Devon Lane and Elegant Cat have the nicest crosses, but Elegant Cat definitely comes from a quality female family. If he's suitable, I'd pick him.

[griff]

benthorn
what do you like about Elegent Cat's tail=femail?

[liberty]

I don't know about NM stallions, but if you are breeding to race or to receive breeder bonuses from racing, put a high value on soundness.

[henthorn]

Laurie, consider Thatsusintheolbean by El Prado. He was a tough talented racehorse from a hard-knocking talented family. I updated the database as best I could. New additions should show up tomorrow. The hypo-mating has lots of positives including three crosses of Northern Dancer, crosses of Tom Fool, Somethingroyal, Fighting Fox, Turn-To, Mahmoud and others.

Griff, Elegant Cat's dam Elegant Glance is also the dam of Gentlemen. Java Moon is the second dam of Memories of Silver.

[ZiaLand]

henthorn, I'd heard of him but never really looked at his pedigree before. I really do like the Sadler's Wells. Added bonus for me: He's loaded with Tourbillon on his dam's side, once through Tornado and twice through Ambiorix.

Laurie

[Keith]

Hi!
Robyn Dancer crossed with your mare you would line breed 3x4 Mr. Prospector and 4x5x5x6 on Native Dancer and 4x5 Raise a Native and Raise a Native's full sister Show Stopper. Look See your mares sire is a half brother to Governor's Pride who had tons of early speed and he is by Housebuster.

Keith

[ZiaLand]

Keith, you're right, Robyn Dancer looks to be an excellent cross for her and he's a proven sire. I've written him off because I've gotten reports that his temperament is terrible. It's really unfortunate, because he really has some good credentials as a sire, other than this issue. It's something I'll really have to watch for in the Storm Cats, as well.

Laurie

[Keith]

Honestly I do not know much about Desert God other than he sired the hard knocking filly Stormy Spirit. It does not look like he has been bred to many quality mares. Crossed wth your mare would be 3x4 Mr. Prospector 4x5 Traffic Judge. He is a well bred son of Fappiano a great sire line and he is standing for $1500 in New Mexico.
Another horse I would consider would be Shooter who is by Dehere-Defer West by Gone West. He won the Gr. 3 Sapling S. and the best sires usually can run a little bit. Crossed with your mare you would get 4x4x5 Secretariat. 4x4 Mr. Prospector 4x5 Northern Dancer 5x5x6x6 Bold Ruler 5x5x6 Somethingroyal. 4x5 Damascus and 5x6 Grass Shack the 3rd dam of Charismatic and Deputy Minister. He is in New Mexico.

Keith

[Mahubah]

Lazy Lode (Arg) was a group 1 winner in Argentina and looks like a pretty interesting cross with your mare on paper, but he doesn't seem to have been doing much as a stallion, does he?

[henthorn]

I just tripped over this stallion's name when looking for matches for another horse. I looked in particular for studs with both Icecapade and Deputy Minister, and found Wild Deputy, who stands in New Mexico at $2500 fee. I recalled that I was looking for Deputy Minister sons for Glorieta yesterday in NM and didn't find any. If you look at this hypo on paper, it's fabulous, with crosses of Shenanigans, Grass Shack, Northern Dancer, and many more. Check it out. I know nothing about the stallion other than his pedigree and that he was a moderate runner. I updated his tail female line.

[jellac]

Zialand -

I'm not familiar with the rules for breeders of New Mexico-breds so this information may be useless for your purposes. Assuming that New Mexico' Breeders incentives apply to foals from mares that are bred-back to New Mexico stallions I wonder if you might not be better off - for sale purposes - in breeding to one of the four Storm Cat sons that stand in Texas and are already "proven" capable of producing runners/winners. You could foal out in New Mexico, then breed back your mare her second year to a New Mexico stud....wouldn't that make the first baby eligible for New Mexico awards? I'm not suggesting this for the sake of promoting Texas based stallions over what's available in New Mexico - but rather for getting your mare to a reasonabally priced, not geographicly beyond reach and already proven "Storm Cat" that might have more market appeal and remove at least one of the many doubts one has to surmount in breeding - rather it's to race or sell. The key I would think - if New Mexico rules allow for this - is to not only look at the pedigree matchup and physical aspect of these stallions but to also check out their offspring's conformation. Now that these stallions are breeding on the 'bubble' what the market thinks of them should be clear in terms of the number of and the quality of mares being booked for 2006, increases or decreases/discounts of their published stud fees. Also at this stage, trainers may have some personal experience with their offspring or at least have heard the 'buzz' from other trainers.

THE Storm Cat sire sons I'm thinking of are - Strictly in order of their ranking as of 10/31 - not by personal preference:

1) Magic Cat - The only Storm Cat sire-son to boast a SW in his first crop to race (as of 10/31). Currently ranked #1 on Leading First-Crop sires by Y-T-D Progeny Earnings in the 2005 Texas Stallion Register w/ Total Earnings of $220,519(Thru 10/31)- Chief earner & SW: Major League/$67,100). I haven't seen any of these in person or that I recall from photographs...but the latter could simply be my 'Alzheimers' kicking in early.....Check out the spring issues of the Texas Thoroughbred magazine near the back for 'brag book' photos of weanlings submitted by their proud owners - there may be a Magic Cat or two in there that I just don't remember.

2) Karen's Cat - Currently ranked #2 on Leading First-Crop sires by Y-T-D Progeny Earnings in the 2005 Texas Stallion Register w/ Total Earnings of $95,278(Thru 10/31)- Chief earner: Cat Tourn/$65,528. (A personal note - I do recall that I did not particularly like the look of his offspring as photographed in the spring issues of the Texas Thoroughbred magazine 'brag book' photos noted above. Many appeared quite small and to turn out on at least one foreleg if not both...but these were also very young weanlings and a lot can change between then and when they race....Also let me caution that these impressions were made from photos taken by amateur photographers, their owners or farm managers, not from personal inspection.) I believe that I heard one of his weanlings/offspring recently sold well at the recent F-T Mixed Sale so you might check that out .)

3)Gen Stormin'norman - Currently ranked #3 on Leading First-Crop sires by Y-T-D Progeny Earnings in the 2005 Texas Stallion Register w/ Total Earnings of $38,670(Thru 10/31)- Chief earner: Capt. MC Craiger/$21,600. He was a moderately successful GS performing, allowance winner out of a G1SW Restless Native mare his first starter broke his maiden at Santa Anita as the 121# hi-wt by 1.5 lengths at first asking. This stallion did set some very good times for the mile at Belmont and Del Mar during his career - and his best looking offspring sell well - One of his offspring sold for $67,000 at recent auction. He stands for $3000 at JEH, a reputable TB & QH stud operation with a branch in New Mexico now - you might be able to make a deal with them to get some of his get in the New Mexico market/racing circuits.

4) Star Programmer - Currently ranked #4 on Leading First-Crop sires by Y-T-D Progeny Earnings in the 2005 Texas Stallion Register w/ Total Earnings of $38,560(Thru 10/31)- Chief earner: Cathouse Saint/$20,120. I have seen a number of his offspring photographed as weanlings in the Texas Thoroughbred and thought they looked quite nice - Some friends have at least one S.P. foal, a colt, which I haven't yet seen in person. They are pleased, albeit the foal is on the small side, but apparently very well formed. They bred their best mare to Star Programmer so that tells you something of their opinions of him.

OF the four, I am most intrigued by - from a distance you understand, as I've not inspected any of them in person - the latter two, despite their standings as of 10/31/04. That may also reflect that I am much more interested in their pedigrees and breeding to race at age 3 and up rather than simply trying to get a "hot" 2YO runner - which of course the market for yearlings - particularly in regional markets is all about. Having said that I will point out that Karen's Cat and Gen Stormin'norman achieved their rankings with signifigantly fewer runners and winners than the #1 and #4 ranked Storm Cat sire-sons, Magic Cat and Star Programmer.

[jellac]

Just to be 'fair' to all the Storm Cats standing in Texas that are ranked I should also note that the stallions Power Storm and Cat Strike are ranked # 8 and #9 on that list respectively. Points out how 'overwhelming' the perceived desire for 'Storm Cats' in the marketplace is.....and might worry some about their undue influence of a stallion not known for throwing consistently sound, nor sane, offspring......

[henthorn]

Sorry, jellac. New Mexico rules don't work that way. Both the mare and sire have to reside in New Mexico. No out-of-staters allowed.

[ZiaLand]

Mahubah, Lazy Lode(ARG) is actually a stallion I'm looking at very closely for two of my other mares. His first foals (in NM anyway) are yearlings of 2005. I don't know if he stood elsewhere before coming to NM, but I believe he ran until age 7, so possibly not. At any rate, the reports on his first two foal crops is that the foals are awesome. He's throwing very correct foals that appear to have excellent legs and hooves. Coupled with his obvious talent ($1.2M earnings & over 100 Byers on dirt and turf) and soundness (29-8-4-6 including stakes wins in the US), he looks like a promising gamble for an as yet unproven NM bred stallion.

Henthorn, Wild Deputy is an excellent recommendation, and was my #1 choice as of two months ago. He was a leading sire in California for his first crop or two before coming here, and has already produced some good runners. He's by Wild Again out of a very good stakes winning daughter of Deputy Minister. He's also moving up in rank quickly within the state's 2004 Leading Sires listing from #15 to #13 to #9. (See the Blood-Horse December 11, page 7062 for a picture of him featured in an article about the farm where he stands.) I'd rather not go in to particulars about why he's not my top consideration now, but it's nothing against the horse himself or his ability as a sire. It has to do with "other factors" we have to consider in the breeding game.

Thanks all! Some great advice and suggestions here.

Laurie