Anyone willing to share their opinions I'd be happy to listen and learn regarding my selections for our 4 booked mares as follows :
1) Carly Pooh to Out of Place ( waiting for a 2009 Mutakddim foal )
2) Beach Barbicue to Holy Bull ( waiting for a 2009 Honour & Glory foal)
3) Bali Hai to Holy Bull ( maiden ; already bred ).
4) Tuleyries to Belong To Me ( barren for 2009 ; just bought her prior to breeding season ).
Thanks,
Mike
Opinions on my stallion selections ...
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Opinions on my stallion selections ...
Bring 'em back tired ; but bring 'em back sound !
mares
Mike:
What I would appreciate first from you would be your thoughts on what you were attempting in each of the selections. I really like Holy Bull and you have booked two to him. I believe they are restricting his book somewhat this year so Darley must also like the selections. Tell us what you hope to obtain with each.
What I would appreciate first from you would be your thoughts on what you were attempting in each of the selections. I really like Holy Bull and you have booked two to him. I believe they are restricting his book somewhat this year so Darley must also like the selections. Tell us what you hope to obtain with each.
Hiya Mr. King,
Sure ; I have no problem with that. I prefer to classify myself as a breed to race kinda guy and all matings I've planned to date hopefully reflect that. Given the current market conditions I'm real happy I made that conscious decision. However ; since I'm not independently wealthy I'm also aware that I'll need to sell something sometime so I've been moving to center in my decision making, at least a little bit, while keeping in mind that I personally wouldn't buy anything I didn't think had a reasonable chance of success despite how pretty horse it may be. Additionally ; where I've been, or where the mares have been, helps to figure out where I'm going. Let me tackle them one by one and if it gets too long for the board we can always take it private.
Beach Barbicue - " Bebe " had two foals prior to our purchase of the mare. While I personally wouldn't have chosen those matings I understand why they happened and have had an opportunity to see both those foals hit the track. Her first two matings were to City Zip & Cappuchino 'cause the farm owned the mare & at one time owned both those stallions. I can't explain why Cappuchino was even at stud but both of those matings have thus far been disappointing and a case of speed & fade. We bought the mare in foal to During & promptly sold that baby after birth. Enter me ... we bred her to Mutakddim ( yearling named Innisfree ) and we're awaiting an Honour & Glory in April. Mutakddim is Mr. P over Northern Dancer whereas our mare is ND over Mr. P ...reverse cross and Mutakddim seems to have the midas touch in general anyway. Honour & Glory gives me a 5 x 5 x 5 ND but it's far enough back for me not to fret and anytime I can sensibly add relaunch to the mix I'll do it especially since there is some record of success with Storm Cat albeit Tabasco Cat is still an unknown, in my opinion, regarding his mare preference. The Holy Bull mating is a complete outcross which is where I was heading with all our mares. He has success with Storm Cat ( again that caveat about Tabasco Cat ) and hopefully we can eliminate that speed & fade I mentioned earlier ( same applies to Honour & Glory ). Now ; it has been correctly pointed out to me, prior & post booking, that Holy Bull doesn't particularly care for Fappiano and I argued with myself constantly about that but decided to take a shot anyway given all I've already mentioned. Could I have gone a different way ... sure ! In fact our first choice was Northern Afleet for both Bebe and our other mare Bali Hai. Taylor Made insisted on a " no sell " clause in the Bali Hai mating so we took our business elsewhere for both mares. But, as you correctly mentioned, Darley loved the matings as did I and there were no exceptions in the contracts. Besides ; we're way overdue for a run of fillies anyway so how can I go wrong with Honour & Glory or Holy Bull in that dep't. LOL !!!
Please ; if that got to be too much for the boards liking we can take this private without any quarrel ... no problems and I'll go through my other selections in that manner.
Mike
Sure ; I have no problem with that. I prefer to classify myself as a breed to race kinda guy and all matings I've planned to date hopefully reflect that. Given the current market conditions I'm real happy I made that conscious decision. However ; since I'm not independently wealthy I'm also aware that I'll need to sell something sometime so I've been moving to center in my decision making, at least a little bit, while keeping in mind that I personally wouldn't buy anything I didn't think had a reasonable chance of success despite how pretty horse it may be. Additionally ; where I've been, or where the mares have been, helps to figure out where I'm going. Let me tackle them one by one and if it gets too long for the board we can always take it private.
Beach Barbicue - " Bebe " had two foals prior to our purchase of the mare. While I personally wouldn't have chosen those matings I understand why they happened and have had an opportunity to see both those foals hit the track. Her first two matings were to City Zip & Cappuchino 'cause the farm owned the mare & at one time owned both those stallions. I can't explain why Cappuchino was even at stud but both of those matings have thus far been disappointing and a case of speed & fade. We bought the mare in foal to During & promptly sold that baby after birth. Enter me ... we bred her to Mutakddim ( yearling named Innisfree ) and we're awaiting an Honour & Glory in April. Mutakddim is Mr. P over Northern Dancer whereas our mare is ND over Mr. P ...reverse cross and Mutakddim seems to have the midas touch in general anyway. Honour & Glory gives me a 5 x 5 x 5 ND but it's far enough back for me not to fret and anytime I can sensibly add relaunch to the mix I'll do it especially since there is some record of success with Storm Cat albeit Tabasco Cat is still an unknown, in my opinion, regarding his mare preference. The Holy Bull mating is a complete outcross which is where I was heading with all our mares. He has success with Storm Cat ( again that caveat about Tabasco Cat ) and hopefully we can eliminate that speed & fade I mentioned earlier ( same applies to Honour & Glory ). Now ; it has been correctly pointed out to me, prior & post booking, that Holy Bull doesn't particularly care for Fappiano and I argued with myself constantly about that but decided to take a shot anyway given all I've already mentioned. Could I have gone a different way ... sure ! In fact our first choice was Northern Afleet for both Bebe and our other mare Bali Hai. Taylor Made insisted on a " no sell " clause in the Bali Hai mating so we took our business elsewhere for both mares. But, as you correctly mentioned, Darley loved the matings as did I and there were no exceptions in the contracts. Besides ; we're way overdue for a run of fillies anyway so how can I go wrong with Honour & Glory or Holy Bull in that dep't. LOL !!!
Please ; if that got to be too much for the boards liking we can take this private without any quarrel ... no problems and I'll go through my other selections in that manner.
Mike
Bring 'em back tired ; but bring 'em back sound !
Continuing on and agan using the where have we been/ where we're going scenario :
Carly Pooh - We have been the only breeders of record for Carly. We bought her in foal to Slew City Slew and from that got a filly named Bali Hai. Bali went through what it turns was poor breaking / training but we didn't realize it until she came to Monmouth Park last year where she was diagnosed with a torn stifle ligament basically right off the van. Although we could have returned her to the track we thought better and are now using her as a broodmare. Anyway ; we have also bred Carly to Louis Quatorze ( colt named Sweet Baby James also coming to Monmouth this year ), Devil His Due ( colt named Voodoo Charm in S. Carolina curently ), and Mutakddim ( waiting for April foal ). Carly,as mentioned, is booked to Out Of Place this year.
Why Louis Quatorze ? I feel like he wants more Bold Ruler in his mares so our colt is thus heavily inbred and should run all day by a still useful stud.
Devil His Due - almost an outcross with the exception of RAN, has had past success with Bold Ruckus, gets tough as nails runners.
Mutakddim - Carly's Dam has been bred to nothing but Mr. P stallions and all have been miserable failures. Basically ; I took a chance that the Mr. P thing is systemic only to Carly's dam and since Carly is a Bold Ruckus mare we took a shot with one of the better Mr. P branches in Seeking The Gold who has had success with Bold Ruler. Could be a grass candidate IMO.
Out Of Place - A total outcross in first five generations & has had good success with Beau Genius mares in particular so I threw my hands in the air and went with the flow hoping he'll like it a third time.
With Beau Genius as Broodie I might expect a bit of staying power but, as with the previous matings for Carly, we're not planning on any classics.
Carly, as well as Beach Barbicue, will get a vacation after this breeding.
So as you can see we've been gradually moving towards shaking things up a bit for the mares mentioned thus far and revive the tail female. Objective for both these mares are good allowance / minor stakes horses with anything beyond that being gravy.
Carly Pooh - We have been the only breeders of record for Carly. We bought her in foal to Slew City Slew and from that got a filly named Bali Hai. Bali went through what it turns was poor breaking / training but we didn't realize it until she came to Monmouth Park last year where she was diagnosed with a torn stifle ligament basically right off the van. Although we could have returned her to the track we thought better and are now using her as a broodmare. Anyway ; we have also bred Carly to Louis Quatorze ( colt named Sweet Baby James also coming to Monmouth this year ), Devil His Due ( colt named Voodoo Charm in S. Carolina curently ), and Mutakddim ( waiting for April foal ). Carly,as mentioned, is booked to Out Of Place this year.
Why Louis Quatorze ? I feel like he wants more Bold Ruler in his mares so our colt is thus heavily inbred and should run all day by a still useful stud.
Devil His Due - almost an outcross with the exception of RAN, has had past success with Bold Ruckus, gets tough as nails runners.
Mutakddim - Carly's Dam has been bred to nothing but Mr. P stallions and all have been miserable failures. Basically ; I took a chance that the Mr. P thing is systemic only to Carly's dam and since Carly is a Bold Ruckus mare we took a shot with one of the better Mr. P branches in Seeking The Gold who has had success with Bold Ruler. Could be a grass candidate IMO.
Out Of Place - A total outcross in first five generations & has had good success with Beau Genius mares in particular so I threw my hands in the air and went with the flow hoping he'll like it a third time.
With Beau Genius as Broodie I might expect a bit of staying power but, as with the previous matings for Carly, we're not planning on any classics.
Carly, as well as Beach Barbicue, will get a vacation after this breeding.
So as you can see we've been gradually moving towards shaking things up a bit for the mares mentioned thus far and revive the tail female. Objective for both these mares are good allowance / minor stakes horses with anything beyond that being gravy.
Bring 'em back tired ; but bring 'em back sound !
Finishing up ... same scenario.
Bali Hai - Wasn't planning on her visiting the breeding shed quite this soon but those are the cards we were dealt.
Obviously this is her 1st. mating and I felt like there was quite enough of Bold Ruler, ND & the Brothers Regal / Regent already there thank you very much. At least for the 1st time let's try a different flavor !!!
It's no secret, at least I don't think it is, that Holy Bull likes Seattle Slew and particularly Slew City Slew & his Son Evansville Slew. Since this is a total outcross ( that's what I wanted ) and Darley gave me no grief ( unlike Taylor Made ) I just stopped there. In fact Darley loved the idea that Bali is a 3/4 to SIS CITY. Nothing fancy about this plan and Holy Bull over Slew City Slew ... yep I like it !
Tuleyries - we just bought her prior to breeding season and if she'll ever come into heat I'll feel a whole lot better about that decision. Anyway she was previously bred to the likes of Disco Rico ( that horse is now a traill horse ), Congressionalhonor ( a 2008 model ) and Delaware Township ( barren for 2009 ). This mare has a nice, deep family as somebody on here mentioned somewhere along the line. Truth of the matter is I've always had a thing for Belong To Me but this is the only mare I owned that I'd seriously consider sending to him. BTM has had a good degree of success with Relaunch/ In Reality ( the only Danzig that really has ) and appreciates added Turn To in his mares ( IMO ) and we have that here 5 x 5 to go along with the 5 x 5 Native Dancer he already has. I didn't look at any other stallions for her ... plain & simple so again nothing fancy here. Now if we can just get her to the shed I'll at least look smarter than I currently do.
That's it ... your opinions are appreciated good, bad or indifferent !
Mike
Bali Hai - Wasn't planning on her visiting the breeding shed quite this soon but those are the cards we were dealt.
Obviously this is her 1st. mating and I felt like there was quite enough of Bold Ruler, ND & the Brothers Regal / Regent already there thank you very much. At least for the 1st time let's try a different flavor !!!
It's no secret, at least I don't think it is, that Holy Bull likes Seattle Slew and particularly Slew City Slew & his Son Evansville Slew. Since this is a total outcross ( that's what I wanted ) and Darley gave me no grief ( unlike Taylor Made ) I just stopped there. In fact Darley loved the idea that Bali is a 3/4 to SIS CITY. Nothing fancy about this plan and Holy Bull over Slew City Slew ... yep I like it !
Tuleyries - we just bought her prior to breeding season and if she'll ever come into heat I'll feel a whole lot better about that decision. Anyway she was previously bred to the likes of Disco Rico ( that horse is now a traill horse ), Congressionalhonor ( a 2008 model ) and Delaware Township ( barren for 2009 ). This mare has a nice, deep family as somebody on here mentioned somewhere along the line. Truth of the matter is I've always had a thing for Belong To Me but this is the only mare I owned that I'd seriously consider sending to him. BTM has had a good degree of success with Relaunch/ In Reality ( the only Danzig that really has ) and appreciates added Turn To in his mares ( IMO ) and we have that here 5 x 5 to go along with the 5 x 5 Native Dancer he already has. I didn't look at any other stallions for her ... plain & simple so again nothing fancy here. Now if we can just get her to the shed I'll at least look smarter than I currently do.
That's it ... your opinions are appreciated good, bad or indifferent !
Mike
Bring 'em back tired ; but bring 'em back sound !
Good luck, Mikec.
Something to maybe keep an eye on for next year or God-forbid Tulyeries doesn't get covered by Belong to Me, you may want to look at sons of Forest Wildcat with her.
Seaneen is an underrated source of speed in pedigrees and for the quality of mare he saw, he still pops up in top sprinters.
Breeding to a son of Forest Wildcat will give you 6sx5d inbreeding to Tir an Oir through the immediate female line of your family. Bringing the best blood back to the family.
Forest Wildcat has also worked pretty well with Grey Dawn and In Reality blood, with some decent offerings out of Relaunch mares.
Just a thought to keep in the back of your mind.
Something to maybe keep an eye on for next year or God-forbid Tulyeries doesn't get covered by Belong to Me, you may want to look at sons of Forest Wildcat with her.
Seaneen is an underrated source of speed in pedigrees and for the quality of mare he saw, he still pops up in top sprinters.
Breeding to a son of Forest Wildcat will give you 6sx5d inbreeding to Tir an Oir through the immediate female line of your family. Bringing the best blood back to the family.
Forest Wildcat has also worked pretty well with Grey Dawn and In Reality blood, with some decent offerings out of Relaunch mares.
Just a thought to keep in the back of your mind.
Thanks Busanda and I will definitely keep your suggestion in mind. Honestly ; we picked Tuleyries ( Reeses ) up for little more than a song due to the prior owners personal situation. Having said that the poor girl didn't have the best of living conditions, was acknowledged barren a long time ago and was not going to be bred this year unless somebody like me showed up. So I'm giving her 1000% benefit of the doubt this year. Culture came back clean so I'm assuming ( you know what happens ) it's a combination of barren, not under lights and freezing cold weather that's causing the delay. I have complete cinfidence in the Ky. farm where she's at & she can only fool Mother Nature for so long ... so we'll see !!!
Bring 'em back tired ; but bring 'em back sound !
Re: Opinions on my stallion selections ...
Bali Hai to Holy Bull
I know you mentioned a filly hope here but be careful for what you wish.
Holy Bull has had 13 graded winners, 11 colts and only 2 fillies.
Of the 13, 8 have had Northern Dancer, here you have it twice.
Of the 13, 6 have Nashrullah with four of them through Bold Ruler, here you have it twice.
Of the 13, 5 have Raise a Native, you have that as well.
Almost all are outcross pedigrees, your inbreeding co-efficient is less than one.
Holy Bull does like a return of Mahmoud and you have several.
From a probability standpoint, you have played the percentages well in this mating.
I really appreciate your mating thought processed.
I know you mentioned a filly hope here but be careful for what you wish.
Holy Bull has had 13 graded winners, 11 colts and only 2 fillies.
Of the 13, 8 have had Northern Dancer, here you have it twice.
Of the 13, 6 have Nashrullah with four of them through Bold Ruler, here you have it twice.
Of the 13, 5 have Raise a Native, you have that as well.
Almost all are outcross pedigrees, your inbreeding co-efficient is less than one.
Holy Bull does like a return of Mahmoud and you have several.
From a probability standpoint, you have played the percentages well in this mating.
I really appreciate your mating thought processed.
Agreed ; this has the potential of being the best mating I've planned yet. However ; I allow my Wife to dream of graded stakes performers and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. For me it's just a bit too much to wrap my head around that I could achieve that degree of satisfaction. Damn ; wouldn't it be nice though ... just once ?
Thanks for the kind words !!!
Thanks for the kind words !!!
Bring 'em back tired ; but bring 'em back sound !
Re: Opinions on my stallion selections ...
Beach Barbicue to Holy Bull
In addition to my comments on Bali Hai, Holy Bull has had 3 graded stakes winners with Wild Risk and Ribot in them. Again, you have both. He has had 5 graded stakes winners from the Raise A Native line but only two with Mr. P.. Still, to me, the overall pedigree seems likely to return what has worked with Holy Bull in the past. You always have a chance at a big horse and from a value standpoint, Darley has reduced his fee and book size so that should be helpful either way if you keep the foal or you want to sell one. If memory serves Holy Bull has a stakes winner from a Crafty Prospector mare and his sons may seem to like Mr. P better than their dad. Macho Uno has Mr. P in his dam side as well and it worked just fine there.
In addition to my comments on Bali Hai, Holy Bull has had 3 graded stakes winners with Wild Risk and Ribot in them. Again, you have both. He has had 5 graded stakes winners from the Raise A Native line but only two with Mr. P.. Still, to me, the overall pedigree seems likely to return what has worked with Holy Bull in the past. You always have a chance at a big horse and from a value standpoint, Darley has reduced his fee and book size so that should be helpful either way if you keep the foal or you want to sell one. If memory serves Holy Bull has a stakes winner from a Crafty Prospector mare and his sons may seem to like Mr. P better than their dad. Macho Uno has Mr. P in his dam side as well and it worked just fine there.
Have to admit I missed the Mr. P in Macho Uno when I was looking for some comfort so I certainly can't take any credit for thinking of it. The entirety of my thought process in that regard was ... hey idiot ... it's Unbridled in tail female with Storm Cat up top ... take a shot !!!
Bring 'em back tired ; but bring 'em back sound !
Re: Opinions on my stallion selections ...
Beach Barbicue to Holy Bull additional thoughts
Adena Springs stallion comments contain two interesting thoughts about inbreeding to Aspidistra, the dam of Dr. Fager. Your mating will have her 3 times (4x7x7)
1) Indy King’s best runner thus far is the stakes winner and graded stakes-placed Indy Joe. He is out of a daughter of Holy Bull and carries a double of the great mare Aspidistra, the dam of Dr. Fager (sire of Indy King’s third dam) and Ta Wee (dam of Holy Bull’s sire Great Above). Fappiano is the most prominent source of Dr. Fager (and his dam) and the overall A. P. Indy-Fappiano cross has yielded some incredible results in recent years. There have been at least 10 stakes winners bred on the cross and every single one is a graded winner and four are Grade 1 winners, including Preakness winner Bernardini.
Another Tartan Farm product, the Mr. Prospector son Fappiano, should also be considered for Giacomo.[Son of Holy Bull] His damsire, Dr. Fager, is a half brother to Great Above’s dam Ta Wee. Inbreeding to their dam Aspidistra is a pattern found in at least 32 stakes winners, including Kentucky Derby winner Unbridled, his full brother Wood Memorial (G1) winner Cahill Road, and Grade 1 winner and good sire Quiet American
I can see why Darley liked this mating.
Adena Springs stallion comments contain two interesting thoughts about inbreeding to Aspidistra, the dam of Dr. Fager. Your mating will have her 3 times (4x7x7)
1) Indy King’s best runner thus far is the stakes winner and graded stakes-placed Indy Joe. He is out of a daughter of Holy Bull and carries a double of the great mare Aspidistra, the dam of Dr. Fager (sire of Indy King’s third dam) and Ta Wee (dam of Holy Bull’s sire Great Above). Fappiano is the most prominent source of Dr. Fager (and his dam) and the overall A. P. Indy-Fappiano cross has yielded some incredible results in recent years. There have been at least 10 stakes winners bred on the cross and every single one is a graded winner and four are Grade 1 winners, including Preakness winner Bernardini.
Another Tartan Farm product, the Mr. Prospector son Fappiano, should also be considered for Giacomo.[Son of Holy Bull] His damsire, Dr. Fager, is a half brother to Great Above’s dam Ta Wee. Inbreeding to their dam Aspidistra is a pattern found in at least 32 stakes winners, including Kentucky Derby winner Unbridled, his full brother Wood Memorial (G1) winner Cahill Road, and Grade 1 winner and good sire Quiet American
I can see why Darley liked this mating.