Need/Welcome input on possible mating for this mare: Jaded Ridge'86
Would prefer to stay in the immediate region of Texas as that is where I am and can stay on top of her care, etc. (she is Texas Accredited and I want to support racing in Texas but for purposes of this 'project' am willing to go outside the state for a better stallion or to foal her out for better state incentives/purses/markets) New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana are all also open to consideration as would be stallions in Texas, but might go as far as Florida....or Kentucky in the spring. I don't think this aged mare is a good candidate for the stress of shipping north at this stage in her life and my greatest concern is that if I am able to breed her that she maintain the pregnancy.
GOAL - Am trying for the upside of a commercial foal (i.e. has to sell for at least $24K as a yearling, or for $45K as a 2YO) but want to have the bloodlines to race and win if I must AND perhpas more importantly in the latter instance I want a horse worth breeding on if a filly. (Feel free to tell me that this mare is an unlikely candidate for either objective for whatever reasons you have - I won't be offended and may need to hear this as much as anything.)
Prefer a sire who is a proven producer of winners/BTWs - especially from the Turn-To sireline mares but willing to go with a young unproven sire if the case can be made for same being potentially commercial/likely to race/win. I am willing to pay up to $5000 stud fee, maybe even higher if there is a good match physically and pedigree wise and reason to believe there would be upside potential; but would prefer to stay in the $3500 range. (I would consider foal sharing to get her to a good stallion at the higher end whose connections would like to have a SW producing broodmare with a high percentage of runners/winners from foals and decent catalog page).
She has already produced a modest SW by Broad Brush - which sireline seems to like returns of it's on sireline historicly. A trend also seen in this mare's female femily production history),
She's produced a $100K+ winner by Marquetry.
She has two foals - I think yet to race - a yearling by Cien Fuegos and a 2YO or 3YO by him as well that my have just started or be starting.
Aside from looking a bit of the physical wreck as an aged broodmare and one not especially well maintained: she has height, big hip, straight correct legs and some substance or bone to her legs, prominenet withers, a well set in neck of good lenth, width at the jaw, and a very keen alert aspect in a regal head. And she's got a very sweet, sane temperment. She passes on these traits to the one foal I've seen. Her one or two physical faults that I could pick out: she's narrow in front and has a somewhat upright shoulder. AND she has not too good of feet - compounded by her having foundered at some point, but there is very little hoof there to support such a large framed mare. You can look at her frame, and guess that at one time she was pretty much a female version of her ancestor Royal Charger from the photo on this databse, with that large hip and she definitely has his head.
So far - from very limited research - I am considering:
Rare Brick (has had two SWs from Cox's Ridge mares, has a high percentage of runners from foals, winners from runners - not a commercial sire but very affordable and nearby and at least from photos wide through the chest.)
Saratoga Six (a good prospect for producing a filly worthy of breeding on and has had some good winners from this sire line, nearby and not too expensive in N.Mx)
Concern (a Broad Brush son in Oklahoma - but does not appear able to produce the big horse often enough to be 'commercial' and that would be a lot of 'Turn-To' in the resulting pedigree)
Mongoose (another Broad Brush son - this one in Florida and early in his stud career, so no 'negative' news to dampen any potential enthusiasm. Fee isn't too bad....but is he worth it, and remember that involves shipping, finding a really good farm to keep mare at while she's in Florida and either foaling out there or returning to my region of the country. (Include in Kentucky is another B.B. son young at stud that I've turned over in my mind....)
Truluck (A well bred young McNair runner by Conquistador Cielo at stud for a very inexpensive introductory fee, in Texas and not too distant at that. Could this mating result in another Wagon Limit? I like the matchup of his pedigree with hers. I also like his tall leggy frame and prominent withers to go with this mare - from photo - but not sure if he isn't a tad narrow himself in front. Foal would have to be the 'Looker" of the century to be commercial and then probably at the 2YO Sales, not before, is my thought.)
Naevus (Not a commercial mating but he has had some good runners/winners from Cox's Ridge mares and he's literally right down the road, a bit of a bargain for his consistency at stud. I like the 'numbers' that result from this combination, and I've always been something of a sentimental fan of this "Mr. Consistent' sire - he delivers although seldom a homerun.)
YOUR thoughts, pro and con, on this 'project' and it's goals, the considered matings or alternates would be appreciated.
Advice, please?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Hi, jellac. Your mare has lots of possibilities of stallions that suit her. These are some I thought of off the top of my head, and they all suit her at your price range or less.
Lucky Lionel in OK. Son of Mt. Livermore, who combined with a Cox's Ridge broodmare to produce millionaire Orientate.
Dixieland Heat in LA. Sire of Xtra Heat, and who knows whether he will become commercial if he gets another top performer from his KY crops. Dixieland Band produced the best offspring of all Northern Dancer sons from CR's daughters in Hook and Ladder, and the percentage with ND sons is 10% in contrast to 6% for all other sires. You get a bonus cross of Damascus as well.
Gold Legend, a TX stud by Seattle Slew, unraced. He is out of the blue hen mare Gold Beauty, and has already produced millionaire Heritage of Gold. SS thru A P Indy produced Stephen Got Even from a CR mare.
Authenticate, an unraced three million dollar sales purchase by Gone West, out of multiple GSW Lakeway is now in TX. Gone West sired millionaire West by West out of a CR mare, and sons of Mr. Prospector have 9% SW out of CR mares.
Cox's Ridge is a very good broodmare sire, and he works with almost any sire line. Check out the pedigrees of these sires and you'll see lots of possibilities. And I'm sure there are lots of other suitable sires in the region. The Broad Brush SW out of her as of 2001 APR does not look good enough to sway you one way or another.
Lucky Lionel in OK. Son of Mt. Livermore, who combined with a Cox's Ridge broodmare to produce millionaire Orientate.
Dixieland Heat in LA. Sire of Xtra Heat, and who knows whether he will become commercial if he gets another top performer from his KY crops. Dixieland Band produced the best offspring of all Northern Dancer sons from CR's daughters in Hook and Ladder, and the percentage with ND sons is 10% in contrast to 6% for all other sires. You get a bonus cross of Damascus as well.
Gold Legend, a TX stud by Seattle Slew, unraced. He is out of the blue hen mare Gold Beauty, and has already produced millionaire Heritage of Gold. SS thru A P Indy produced Stephen Got Even from a CR mare.
Authenticate, an unraced three million dollar sales purchase by Gone West, out of multiple GSW Lakeway is now in TX. Gone West sired millionaire West by West out of a CR mare, and sons of Mr. Prospector have 9% SW out of CR mares.
Cox's Ridge is a very good broodmare sire, and he works with almost any sire line. Check out the pedigrees of these sires and you'll see lots of possibilities. And I'm sure there are lots of other suitable sires in the region. The Broad Brush SW out of her as of 2001 APR does not look good enough to sway you one way or another.
Rocking H
jellac, if you're looking at NM sires for the NM breeder incentives, I'd suggest you consider Devon Lane. He's a son of Storm Cat out of To The Hunt (dam of 2004 Eclipse Award nominee Stellar Jayne and also Starrer) and he's very hot right now. He just returned to NM from California. If you're interested in booking him you'll need to act fast as he's already got more than 80 booked. He's a powerfully built, gray stallion, around 16H who has sired several stakes winners and a QH who finished 3rd in the 2004 All American (Devon Signature). He's standing at TNL Farms in Bernardo.
If you're looking to reinforce that healthy dose of Tourbillon in your mare (
), take a look at Claudius, a Majestic Light stallion who has already produced a stakes winner of over $400K from his first crop of 5 to run, or Lazy Lode(ARG) a GSW of $1.2 million who is attracting a lot of attention and who's first yearling crop looks great. Both stallions are at A&A Farm in Anthony (near Sunland Park).
Good luck!
Laurie
If you're looking to reinforce that healthy dose of Tourbillon in your mare (
), take a look at Claudius, a Majestic Light stallion who has already produced a stakes winner of over $400K from his first crop of 5 to run, or Lazy Lode(ARG) a GSW of $1.2 million who is attracting a lot of attention and who's first yearling crop looks great. Both stallions are at A&A Farm in Anthony (near Sunland Park).
Good luck!
Laurie
So many pedigrees...so little time. (C)
Rocking Trick would be interesting on the paper match-up:
Rocking Trick's sire Phone Trick got Juvenile G2W Zavata from a Cox's Ridge mare.
Rocking Trick's dam Razzi Cat got MGIW Randy Cat from a Never Bend grandson (namely Roy). (Another advantage of Rocking Trick for the Never Bend is that RT is from the same 19-b female family and is 6x6 to Djebel through Never Bend's damsire Djeddah and the sireline of Rt's 2nd damsire Luthier.)
The 2nd dam of the mare's main legacy is her daughter Sultry Sun (the dam of Sultry Song, Stagegic Mission, and Solar Splendor); who was by Buckfinder, a half-brother to Rocking Trick's great-grandsire Icecapade.
And also the mare's 3/4 brother Sultry Song got one of his best (Prime Timber) from a granddaughter of Finnegan. Finnegan being the damsire of Phone Trick.
-llbean
Rocking Trick's sire Phone Trick got Juvenile G2W Zavata from a Cox's Ridge mare.
Rocking Trick's dam Razzi Cat got MGIW Randy Cat from a Never Bend grandson (namely Roy). (Another advantage of Rocking Trick for the Never Bend is that RT is from the same 19-b female family and is 6x6 to Djebel through Never Bend's damsire Djeddah and the sireline of Rt's 2nd damsire Luthier.)
The 2nd dam of the mare's main legacy is her daughter Sultry Sun (the dam of Sultry Song, Stagegic Mission, and Solar Splendor); who was by Buckfinder, a half-brother to Rocking Trick's great-grandsire Icecapade.
And also the mare's 3/4 brother Sultry Song got one of his best (Prime Timber) from a granddaughter of Finnegan. Finnegan being the damsire of Phone Trick.
-llbean
I forgot to mention that Clever Trick, Never Bend, and Best Turn have already combined successfully in the G3W / GI Placed / GI Producer Nice Assay, the dam of Came Home.
In the abstract, Mongoose is worth his fee; but inbreeding to Cox's Ridge that closely looks a little speculative. Maybe it could work given the soundness associated with the line; but even though Jaded Ridge is well bred, her produce record isn't good enough to justify inbreeding through her that closely.
-llbean
In the abstract, Mongoose is worth his fee; but inbreeding to Cox's Ridge that closely looks a little speculative. Maybe it could work given the soundness associated with the line; but even though Jaded Ridge is well bred, her produce record isn't good enough to justify inbreeding through her that closely.
-llbean
At this mare's age I respectively submit that you are not trying to 'make' the mare by a clever nick or 'good' cross. If it works out that you can find a good stallion that also matches your mare pedigree-wise then all the better but IMO you should be concentrating on getting the best stallion for your dollar.
My first question would be where do you plan to sell this yearling to get 24K? If it is at Keeneland, even with this mare's good pedigree and the fact that she is a (minor) stake producer, her age will hurt her and you may well find yourself in book 6 because of it even if you breed to a moderate KY stallion.
If you want to sell in LA or NM, you will need to have the foal state accredited or many buyers will pass you by. Both of these states have residency requirements. Mare must be domiciled in each of these states. For NM, you must breed to a NM accredited stallion - Devon Lane would be the one I would pick. I bred to him while he was in CA and the foal was terrific, A+ in the looks department. This is a viable option for reaching your $$ goal but you will need to factor in long term boarding costs for keeping the mare in either of those states.
That leaves sales in TX, OK, AR. IMO there is no stallion in OK or AR that you can breed to and get this kind of money (on most days). The best sire in OK just died (Here We Come, fee $2,500) and his yearling sale median was somewhere around $4,000. For TX, breed to the hottest thing there and sell at the FT sale at Lone Star. You could also breed to a top stallion in LA or NM and still have a nice TX bred.
Or better yet, breed her to a good stallion (less than $10k) in KY and then bring her home and foal her out in TX. I've found that good farms in TX, those that have top stallions, charge a comparable boarding fee as you would pay in KY or just slightly under. If she is sound enough to make the trip to KY, that is what I would do.
You have a really nice mare and I love the fact that she is by Cox's Ridge, well known as an excellent broodmare sire. If you don't sell and you decide to race the foal then you have at least gone to a good stallion. Good luck in whatever your decision.
My first question would be where do you plan to sell this yearling to get 24K? If it is at Keeneland, even with this mare's good pedigree and the fact that she is a (minor) stake producer, her age will hurt her and you may well find yourself in book 6 because of it even if you breed to a moderate KY stallion.
If you want to sell in LA or NM, you will need to have the foal state accredited or many buyers will pass you by. Both of these states have residency requirements. Mare must be domiciled in each of these states. For NM, you must breed to a NM accredited stallion - Devon Lane would be the one I would pick. I bred to him while he was in CA and the foal was terrific, A+ in the looks department. This is a viable option for reaching your $$ goal but you will need to factor in long term boarding costs for keeping the mare in either of those states.
That leaves sales in TX, OK, AR. IMO there is no stallion in OK or AR that you can breed to and get this kind of money (on most days). The best sire in OK just died (Here We Come, fee $2,500) and his yearling sale median was somewhere around $4,000. For TX, breed to the hottest thing there and sell at the FT sale at Lone Star. You could also breed to a top stallion in LA or NM and still have a nice TX bred.
Or better yet, breed her to a good stallion (less than $10k) in KY and then bring her home and foal her out in TX. I've found that good farms in TX, those that have top stallions, charge a comparable boarding fee as you would pay in KY or just slightly under. If she is sound enough to make the trip to KY, that is what I would do.
You have a really nice mare and I love the fact that she is by Cox's Ridge, well known as an excellent broodmare sire. If you don't sell and you decide to race the foal then you have at least gone to a good stallion. Good luck in whatever your decision.
It's important to emphasize the importance of the conformational match-up between the individual stallion and mare in how much a yealing would sell for. An advantage of both Mongoose and Include is that they're on the bubble and if their offspring do well, you could get back the money you're talking about so long as the yearling looks okay.
With Mongoose you have the disadvantage of the 2x3 to Cox's Ridge through a mare that only has thrown one Minor SW in her long career though.
You have to answer two questions on Include: How good is the conformational match-up? And: Will Include be a success by the time I sell the foal?
I'm not sure about the pedigree match-up with Include since I haven't looked at it that closely; but of course linebreeding to Turn-To is generally advantagous in the breed as a whole.
-llbean
With Mongoose you have the disadvantage of the 2x3 to Cox's Ridge through a mare that only has thrown one Minor SW in her long career though.
You have to answer two questions on Include: How good is the conformational match-up? And: Will Include be a success by the time I sell the foal?
I'm not sure about the pedigree match-up with Include since I haven't looked at it that closely; but of course linebreeding to Turn-To is generally advantagous in the breed as a whole.
-llbean
I would consider Gold Regent
Hi!
Your mares best runner was by Marquetry probably due to line breeding on Never Bend. Gold Regent is a 3/4 brother to Marquetry and this stallion has sired 3 stakes winners from 2 crops. With your mare you would be line breeding Never Bend 3x4 and 4x5x5 Nasrullah. He is in Texas standing for $3,000. He may be an option.
Keith
Your mares best runner was by Marquetry probably due to line breeding on Never Bend. Gold Regent is a 3/4 brother to Marquetry and this stallion has sired 3 stakes winners from 2 crops. With your mare you would be line breeding Never Bend 3x4 and 4x5x5 Nasrullah. He is in Texas standing for $3,000. He may be an option.
Keith
I would go to Flatter at Claiborne farm in Paris Ky. He stands for $5,000. He is by A.P. Indy and has a very good female family. It will still be hard to get a $24,000 Yrlg, however I feel you would have a better chance then to breed to a $3,000 stallion.
I was always taught you should estimate the stud fee x 4 to get a rough Yrlg price. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but I feel it is a good start to plan ahead to achieve the goal you have set out.
I was always taught you should estimate the stud fee x 4 to get a rough Yrlg price. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but I feel it is a good start to plan ahead to achieve the goal you have set out.