what do you think about breeding this mare?

[OkeyDokeySmokey]

I wondered if anyone knowledgeable here could tell me what they think about my mare Quiet Virtue. She injured a hock and I started thinking about breeding her. I was thinking of Prized, who is local to me, but I know nothing about pedigree, nicks etc. I liked Prized just because he was a good racehorse, he has a full brother who was a good steeplechaser (what I would like to get), and one of his best runners was from a Turkoman mare (Virtue is by Turkoman out of a Sky Classic mare). But I don't know anything about pedigree, nicks, marketability, etc., and hoped someone could enlighten me as to whether such a foal would be marketable or I should absolutely plan to keep the foal if I bred her. Prized can't possibly continue breeding much longer, he's 25 or 26, but he is still on their roster as active, which is why I ask. Anyhow, in case it is relevant - physically she is a big tall girl but agile as a cat and pretty much tireless. But she wasn't terribly speedy at the track, at least not fast enough to justify how much trouble she is to train (she's pretty hot). Also she matured quite late, grew from 16.2 to 17 h after turning 5. Anyhow, any comments are appreciated.

[springboro]

I vote no, and here's why.

Commercially (and people, you have to think about this more as horses that were never meant to be sold are going on the block) her 1st dam kills her. The poor mare has so many empty years and of the few foals she produced, not (m)any runners.

Someone else pointed out on another thread that there are a lot of very well bred youngsters going for cheap. If you want a prospect, go that route and buy someone else's bargain.

I fear that the resulting foal for this mare would become another victim of the current economy.

[karenkarenn]

OKey--
Sending you a positve PM.
K

[erhrdt3]

Agree with Springboro, don't breed JUST to breed, esp. if you have someone knowledgeable as Springboro obviously is, and create another horse that may not make it.

There are super deals at the auctions, great pedigrees, and plus you are not adding to the problem of creating more horses that who knows what will happen to them. We got great fillies at the Keeneland auction for less than the stud fee is for the stallions that created them.

I do remember Prized, and am surprised that he still is on a roster at that age! In fact I thought he was no longer with us its been that long.

Please consider a good pedigreed horse from the various auctions they have. You can get them either in training, in need of training, etc. And, most importantly, as Springboro said, you are not creating a victim of the poor economy.

Good post Springboro!

[madelyn]

The OP's question was more related to the marketability of the foal - and so the answer is no, the mare has insufficient catalog page for the foal to be considered as a sale prospect. So therefore, OKS, if you do breed the mare you MUST be prepared to keep the foal.

[erhrdt3]

Hi Madelyn, it is so nice to hear someone say that, you must be ready to keep the foal! It is so much appreciated what you do for horses in need.

Thank you.

[springboro]

Agree with Springboro, don't breed JUST to breed, esp. if you have someone knowledgeable as Springboro obviously is, and create another horse that may not make it.

...

Please consider a good pedigreed horse from the various auctions they have. You can get them either in training, in need of training, etc. And, most importantly, as Springboro said, you are not creating a victim of the poor economy.

Good post Springboro!

erhdt3, you flatter me way too much! I don't know that I'm anymore knowledgeable than anyone else (and I can't begin to compare to Madelyn or some of these experienced breeders) but thanks for the big compliment.

I'm a regular opinionated horse person with some background and history, and plenty of stories filled with some bad luck and various poor decisions. I can be used as a cautionary tale of what to NOT do in breeding thoroughbreds! I think that's from where my strong opinions sometimes come.

[erhrdt3]

Don't underestimate yourself!

It's the right frame of mind to be in, to help these magnificent animals and to not bring in more that are underbred into the world.

I've not had the pleasure of meeting Madelyn in person, but I sure can tell she knows ALOT and also cares deeply about the horses also. She has an impressive website and I was amazed at how much info was on there about Rocking Trick. We need more folks like her to help the rescues!

I have always been a racing fan, but until I actually became an owner, I really never knew the degree of what happens to these animals. They are not livestock, they are not to be eaten, they are not carcasses for a last couple hundred bucks. They deserve to be treated with dignity and humanely, even in their last days. As I said in an earlier post, all anyone needs to do is watch one of the videos online what happens to them, after they have run their hearts out for the owners, and if that does not make a person cringe, well, they have not a soul or a heart.

There needs to be more fees for every aspect of the industry towards the retirement of the horses. Have it on a scale. Twenty dollars here, ten there, a hundred here, it ALL adds up. The Jockey Club needs to get their head out of their ass and see what is going on and implement these fees. My check would be in the mail. Hit the breeding the most, have a portion of the stud fee go towards the horses, or just don't breed. Simple as that. If you can afford to have a breeding operation, you can afford an extra small amount. And these huge multi-million dollar farms and owners?! Sure, they can afford more.

All for the love of horses!

[OkeyDokeySmokey]

Thanks very much all - what I really wanted to know was if the foal would have any value to anyone but me and clearly it's another case of the mare being worth millions to me and zip to anybody else. But I love her and I would so like to have another one just like her. She's so athletic it's just scarey. Would I likely get that with Prized or is it just a crapshoot? He's certainly goodlooking, especially for an old guy - way better than his pictures.

[springboro]

Okey, what do you do with your horses? Are you breeding for racing? For what activity? We know this mare is athletic, but we need a discipline to provide more ideas. Jumping? Dressage? Trails? Eventing?

And again, while I know it's fun to have babies, what will this foal do upon entering this world? Breeding two athletic parents is a fine start - just have a plan.

My two cents, of course!

[zinn21]

You never know. Does Prized stamp his offspring? Check around. Your mare is the gangly type. I would be looking to add muscle and balance. If you like what she brings to the table and can afford to breed her and take car of her babies go for it. But be damn sure your opinion of her is based traits you believe will deliver a productive foal. Otherwise just stay in love with her as a maiden mare.

[springboro]

ok, I'm going to do a whole work up on this mare...

http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/nov08/pdfs/4114.pdf
most recent catalog page.

First dam, a winner, has a very spotty repro history at first, with many no reports. Bred to moderate KY stallions Turkoman, Congaree, and Limehouse. Quiet Virtue, the first foal, won 1 race and was 2nd once in seven starts, and earned $11,166. A full sister didn't race. Next foal, Jacardi, by Congaree, ran twice at two and placed once, earning $3,696. There is a yearling Limehouse named Lima Bean, and a weanling and suckling by Added Edge, an Iowa sire. ANALYSIS: One winner, cheap races, poor producer to date.

This mare was a CANTER mare, which is not typically the place to find a future broodmare (for racing, I should say - again, what is your purpose or plan for her foals?) Does CANTER have any restrictions on breeding one of their placements?

The stallion, Prized, ( http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... prized.pdf ) does improve his mares (1.40 vs. 1.37 AEI). He never got any big books and only sired 176 foals, of which 23 were stakes winners. His best runners appear to be mostly in New Zealand and Australia, with a champion in Germany and another in the Dominican Republic.

Quiet Virtue has some heavy turf influence (I seem to be saying that a lot these days) with her broodmare sire being Sky Classic. Personally, I'd play to his dam, No Class, and find a breeding to Dances with Ravens or another stallion from that distaff, but I digress. This family has done its best production with Dynaformer, Mt. Livermore, and El Gran Senor with some minor black type in European races. This means grass and probably some distance too.

So, if you told me that you like hurdles or eventing or something along those lines, I could give my thumbs up for a mating with this mare to Prized. But, you should be prepared to raise the foal, train the foal, and get that foal to the destination yourself. The market isn't going to reward you on this breeding.

[springboro]

and a mating to Dance With Ravens gets an A++ nick (ya, ya, big deal, I know)

http://truenicks.com/free-reports/hypot ... oMode=True

[madelyn]

..... I was thinking of Prized, who is local to me, but I know nothing about pedigree, nicks etc. I liked Prized just because he was a good racehorse, he has a full brother who was a good steeplechaser (what I would like to get), and one of his best runners was from a Turkoman mare (Virtue is by Turkoman out of a Sky Classic mare).....

In the original post, the OP indicated that a steeplechaser is what is being bred here. In this case, I would look for a stallion built just like the mare, to get that greyhound-built distance horse that can fly over the hurdles. The main concern I would have about Prized is that he is by Kris S and those can be bears, temperament-wise. Stubborn, bullheaded, hard to train. But they are very game. Stallion-wise, for this mating, sprinters need not apply.

[springboro]

..... I was thinking of Prized, who is local to me, but I know nothing about pedigree, nicks etc. I liked Prized just because he was a good racehorse, he has a full brother who was a good steeplechaser (what I would like to get), and one of his best runners was from a Turkoman mare (Virtue is by Turkoman out of a Sky Classic mare).....

In the original post, the OP indicated that a steeplechaser is what is being bred here. In this case, I would look for a stallion built just like the mare, to get that greyhound-built distance horse that can fly over the hurdles. The main concern I would have about Prized is that he is by Kris S and those can be bears, temperament-wise. Stubborn, bullheaded, hard to train. But they are very game. Stallion-wise, for this mating, sprinters need not apply.

See, not only is Madelyn a wiser breeder, she also reads better than I do! Rats, I lose points for reading thoroughness! Good catch to Madelyn and my apologies to Okey for rushing my post.