Pretty please, help.

[pam]

I wrote awhile back about my mare Vercingetorix (seattle slew, spend a buck lines). I'm doing my best to crash course learn about genetics. Good luck, right? Anyway, I went to Bloodhorse.com to look up and hypo mate all stallions listed up to my price range $5,000. I live in Illinois and am trying to figure what is the best choice for her. I plan to sell the yearling, or if I don't get enough $, then train it myself or send to a trainer. Since you have been so kind this far, could you please tell me what you think of my possible final choices. I'm sorry their are so many, but I'm trying to figure this all out.
The choices:
Private Terms, Homebuilder, Bayou Hebert, Coporate Report, Eastern Echo, Alamocitos, Lightning Leap, Claudius, Commanchero, Sir Cat and Announce.
I know these are alot of names to look at. Thank you for your precious time and have a great day no matter what.

[madelyn]

Hi pam, first a question... will you be racing the foal in Illinois if you don't sell it? Next question, which sales would you be aiming for? I ask this because the stallions you selected are sort of all over the map... Louisiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, etc. etc.

I am in Kentucky, and my farm stands a horse, Rocking Trick, and even though this is my first year, my experience has been that breeders will either send their mare to a horse in their own state to take advantage of in-state programs, or ship to KY for a stallion they really want. Some states permit the mare to be bred to a horse outside their state so long as she foals "at home"... anyhow, before analyzing pedigrees, I think you should possibly look at the geography involved.

[Rick]

Personally, I would try to build up the La Troinne factor by using Private Terms. As for Alamocitos,he has been sold overseas(Saudi Arabia I think)

[roving boy]

Breeding to race or breeding to sell...big difference. If breeding to race go with a proven horse!! If bredding to sell, your safest bet is a 1st or 2nd year stalliion.

Regardless, I would try to find a Mr. P line horse that carries La Troienne - Cape Town would be ideal but out of your range. There are a number of options out there - Good Luck!

[Keith]

What has Seattle Slew line mares crossed well with?
1. Cigar by Palace Music-Solar Slew by Seattle Slew Horse of the Year in 1995 and 1996 Breeder's Cup Classic, Dubai World Cup fron The Minstrel/Northern Dancer sire line.
2. Tiznow by Cee's Tizzy-Cee's Song by Seattle Song Horse of the Year at 3 Breeder's Cup Classic(twice) from the Relaunch/In Reality sire line
3. Lemon Drop Kid by Kingmambo-Charming Lassie by Seattle Slew Champion Older Horse won Belmont S. from the Mr. Prospector sire line
4. Golden Attraction by Mr. Prospector-Seaside Attraction by Seattle Slew Champion 2 year old filly from Mr. P/Raise a Native sire line.
5. Cape Town by Seeking the Gold-Seaside Attraction by Seattle Slew won Florida Derby and sire of Bird Town-Chp. 3yo filly and won Kentucky Oaks. from the Mr. Prospector sire line.
6. Escena by Strawberry Road-Claxton's Slew by Seattle Slew won Breeder's Cup Distaff from the Nijinsky II/Northern Dancer sire line.
7. Seeking the Pearl by Seeking the Gold-Page Proof by Seattle Slew won $4,021,716 in Japan and the U.S. from Mr. Prospector sire line.
8. Raging Fever by Storm Cat-Pennant Fever by Seattle Slew won Frizette S. (GR.I), Ogden Phipps H.(Gr.I), Matron S.(Gr.I) from Storm Bird/Northern Dancer sire line
9. Dixie Union by Dixieland Band-She's Tops by Capote won Malibu S.(Gr.I), Haskell Invitational H.(Gr.I) $30,000 Stud Fee

Of the horses you selected I would lean toward a Mr. Prospector or Northern Dancer sire line. I know Private Terms had Private Buck Trout who won the Lexington S.-(Gr.III) and is out of a Spend a Buck mare but none of his stakes winners are out of a Seattle Slew line bred mares. Homebuilder may be an option but I am not sure he has had any success crossing on Seattle Slew line mares. His stud fee is affordable at $2,000. I would not consider Bayou Hebert because his best horses are not out of Seattle Slew line mares. I would not go with Corporate Report either because his best runners are not out of Seattle Slew line mares. Eastern Echo is not around anymore. I would not suggest Alomocitos either. I would not suggest Lightning Leap either eventhough he is by Nijinsky II. he has not done that well at stud. I would not suggest Claudius,Announce, Or Sir Cat. Commanchero may be an option. Here are some horses I suggest.

Bowman's Band, Freud, Good and Tough, Lion Hearted, Dance Master, Desert Warrior, Hap, Jazz Club, Lost Soldier, Parker's Storm Cat, Rubiyat, Open Forum, Silver Ghost, Strategic Mission, Van Nistlerooy, and Western Borders.

Keith

[pam]

Vercingetorix possible matings. Yes. I have considered the georgraphy, that's why I'm not going to CA, NY, or FL. Yes, I checked my state's program. Yes, the baby will be born here, and where I will sell him, I haven't determined yet. That will probably depend on where I feel I will get the best price for him based on sales sheets.
The horses I had mentioned to me did not line up as well as the one's I mentioned. Unless you are seeing something I'm not. The thing I like about hypo mating is the computer doesn't show favorites, and I can use my mare as a constant to see the difference in the scores to help determine what is a good match or not. Just my theory...I figure I have to stick to something. What I'm trying to find out from the forum is...which way should I go? Round Table/Knights D. on top, Rough & Tumble, War Ad. etc. Which stallion would be the better selection for selling babies? I have my thoughts, but am interested in hearing other opinions. You know, the funny thing is I started this project, because I decided to find a mare for Vercingetorix's full brother, L'Ange Gabriel, who I'm leaving as a stallion. He's too good to geld, in my opinion, of course....which is worth...anyway. Enjoy your day people. It is good to be here.

[madelyn]

:The choices:
Private Terms, Homebuilder, Bayou Hebert, Coporate Report, Eastern Echo, Alamocitos, Lightning Leap, Claudius, Commanchero, Sir Cat and Announce.

None of these stallions are likely to produce a foal that will command any kind of a price at a sale. Regarding geography, in terms of quality you should probably look only in Illinois and Kentucky... a horse who gets shipped out to Iowa is not one of your commercial sires... ditto most of the others. The buyer's market does not only consider inbreeding/linebreeding/pedigree. The market is based on how well other offspring of that stallion have done. Bayou Hebert?? How many mares did he cover last year?? How many stakes winners has he produced to date?? Lightning Leap, Claudius, Commanchero?? Ditto. Homebuilder... there was a recent thread on this site about how he has pretty much flopped, also Corporate Report. But of course, you know all this ...

[pam]

You know, I have this uncanny knack for saying something wrong, which I must have done again. I'm sorry.
I've seen so many names on the progeny lists that have no record after their name. I think, you know, that probably was a nice colt...what happened to him? I don't want to breed to a stallion just because he a great name or great names behind him. I've seen in the pedigrees blue color 'not so special' mares that have produced some pretty special babies. I'm desperately trying to produce that kind of baby, not the kind that the stallion owner collects the fee and the baby ends up who knows where. Yes, I realize the trainer has alot to do with the end result. Anyway, I do not mean to offend in any way. I'm just trying the find what will work best for my mare. Thank you for you responses and time.

[henthorn]

Pam, I've used the GSV scores of the hypomatings to help choose matings, but it has nothing to do with commercial success. Make up your mind before you choose the mating whether you are breeding for the marketplace, as you are seeking different qualities in the sire than for breed-to-race.

At a sale, buyers look at catalog pages to judge which horses may fit their needs, and will skip over or pay less for those with poor or empty pages. The catalog page only shows the first three generations of the foal's family tree, and only expands on the virtues of the sire and the first few dams. There are no GSV scores, dosage indexes, inbreeding graphs, or discussion of other family members other than the stallion's sire in the case of new stallions.

You want your page to be as full as possible with black type (stakes-placed or stakes-won) runners under the first three dams, and recognizable names in the family tree at the top. Unfortunately your mare's female family mostly produced in South America, and the produce records won't be very complete. Your mare will have to "make her own page" through racing ability or quality offspring.

So you will want the stallion to stand out among the others represented in the sale you choose, with a strong race record that will catch the excitement of the buyer, preferably a first or second year stallion. Your foal will sell before the stud has proven himself. His stud fee will soon climb out of your range if he becomes successful, or his foals' value will drop after his babies hit the track and prove late bloomers or less than top performers. You want a sire that either brings a very good race record, or one whose sons and daughters have done so. Generally the more productive he is, the higher his stud fee will have climbed out of your range.

When the buyer gets past the page to evaluate the individual, he wants to see a well-behaved, good-sized, athletic individual with few faults. You want the foal to look much better and more mature than his peers, so choosing a precocious sprinter-miler stallion will bring more interest in your foal than will an even-more-talented distance horse that didn't develop into a racehorse at an early age. (The distance horse's yearlings will appear relatively immature compared to those of the precocious sprinter, and will not inspire large bids).

You might also consider breeding her the first few years with the thought of selling non-commercially or racing the foals, with the best pedigree you can afford that will likely produce quality runners. That means often choosing an older proven sire who is no longer commercially popular and whose stud fee has fallen into your range. His foals will not sell well, but if you breed a good runner, you can get income from breeders' and /or owners' premiums.

At the same time a successful runner will improve the catalog page of all your mare's future foals, through the offspring of the first dam (your mare). The first dam's produce record will have to fill in where your absent South American produce records should have been.

In summary, aim for the most commercial foal (sell high via newer unproven stallions) or aim for the most likely stakes-producing match (race the foal yourself, or sell low and hope for breeders awards). These are pretty much mutually exclusive goals.

Welcome to the forum, Pam.

[henthorn]

Pam, as has been said above by others, Seattle Slew mares tend to do best with the Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer sons, also with other Raise a Native sons. The best seems to be Mr. P's sons, and Seeking the Gold in particular.

The stud fee of $5000 may be utilized if that is the advertised fee, or if you get a discount on a $6000-7500 stud. So don't necessarily limit yourself to advertised $5000 fee studs.

One that is new in 2004 at $5000 fee in Maryland is a son of Seeking the Gold named Seeking Daylight. His first two year olds will be racing when your foal is a yearling, so no one will yet have written him off. A G2 stakes winner, he might generate some interest in the F-T Midlantic Sale, and there are decent breeders awards as well as Maryland Million eligibility.

A good choice for a proven sire is Silver Ghost at $7500 advertised fee in KY. One of his best performers, Love Lock, was out of a Spend a Buck mare. Plus he is a son of Mr. Prospector, a proven nick with Seattle Slew mares.

Knowing what I know now, I would probably try to improve her catalog page by breeding her to solid producers from family lines that have worked with Seattle Slew mares, realizing that the first few foals will not be commercial. And optimize your chance of good breeders' premiums to make up the difference. Silver Ghost would be a great choice, and I'd bet you could get better terms than what's advertised. Contact me by private message if you'd like to discuss further.

[pam]

Thank you for your replies. I am listening. Keith, I did go back and look at the Seattle Slew winners to see the similarities in genetics and pedigrees. I also looked up the stallions you listed. Thanks again everybody. Now it's decision time..

[Keith]

Hi!
High Fly won the Fountain of Youth Stakes today and he is by Atticus-Verbasle by Slewpy. He is by a son of Nureyev and his broodmare sire is a son of Seattle Slew. Northern Dancer sire line may be an option.

Keith

[BJ]

My personal favorite would be Private Terms. Would be breeding my mares to him IF he were in CA. Eastern Echo would be second favorite, but, he's gone now.


Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2003


PRINCESA QUIL, 1990, Spend A Buck- Slippin N' Slyding by On The Sly.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI

1996 Raymond's Angel,f,Mister Frisky 2 17 2 1 2 14,662 ( 71) 0.38
North America Dirt Sprints 12 1 1 1 7,917 ( 62)
North America Dirt Routes 5 1 0 1 6,745 ( 71)
DP = 1-3-4-2-0 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.30 AWD = 7.00

1997 Miss Patsy Fox,f,Hazaam 3 21 0 0 3 6,968 ( 64) 0.13
North America 2 YO Record 4 0 0 0 1,947 ( 62)
North America Dirt Sprints 15 0 0 3 5,847 ( 64)
North America Dirt Routes 6 0 0 0 1,121 ( 60)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 3 0 0 1 1,695 ( 63)
DP = 8-1-11-0-2 DI = 1.93 CD = 0.59

1998 Vercingetorix,f,Ocala Slew 3 13 1 0 1 11,480 ( 71) 0.32
North America 2 YO Record 2 0 0 0 2,340 ( 62)
North America Dirt Sprints 9 0 0 1 4,790 ( 71)
North America Dirt Routes 4 1 0 0 6,690 ( 70)
DP = 5-2-7-0-0 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.86 AWD = 8.32

1999 L'ange Gabriel,c,Ocala Slew 1 1 0 0 0 1,680 ( 71) 0.54
North America 2 YO Record 1 0 0 0 1,680 ( 71)
North America Dirt Sprints 1 0 0 0 1,680 ( 71)
DP = 5-2-7-0-0 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.86

2000 Unnamed,c,Fast Play
DP = 5-2-11-0-0 DI = 2.27 CD = 0.67

2001 Ulltimate Gold,c,Gold Case 1 2 0 1 0 3,360 ( 73) 1.40
North America 2 YO Record 2 0 1 0 3,360 ( 73)
North America Dirt Sprints 2 0 1 0 3,360 ( 73)
DP = 5-2-6-0-1 DI = 2.50 CD = 0.71
SIRE 1.34 Spi, 96str, 42%2yo, 12%1st, 20%Mud/137sts, 14%Tf/56sts, AWD 6.4
DAM(w) 0.56 Dpi, 4 2yostr/0wnr, 0%Mud/5sts, 0 Tfstr/0wnr, 3 Rtestr/2wnr, AWD 7.4

2002 Bottoms Up Cat,f,Hannibal Cat Unraced
DP = 2-2-5-0-1 DI = 1.86 CD = 0.40
SIRE 0.43 Spi, 16str, 30%2yo, 0%1st, 14%Mud/29sts, 0%Tf/0 6.3
DAM(w) 0.56 Dpi, 4 2yostr/0wnr, 0%Mud/5sts, 0 Tfstr/0wnr, 3 Rtestr/2wnr, AWD 7.4

[aurora]

This is a breed to race mare. Stay in Illiniois and breed to the good horse Cartwright, a son of 49er and only $2,500 to boot. (Last time I looked)

[bcassidy]

This mare is not commercial so I would plan on racing the foal or "giving" the foal away as a weanling at a very attractive price in hopes of earning your Illinois state bred breeder awards, If they are anything like NJ, they are very attractive and could amount to more than what you could sell the foal for as a weanling. You will have no expenses for racing the foal and if the foal runs well, you get the breeders awards and your mare becomes a producer. Subsequent foals would possibly be commercial and you might be able to sell the future foals but this is a high risk plan. I have better advice for you however, don't breed this mare. Claim a current mare running for 5k-10k that has earned over 200k preferrably with some distance wins in her performances and breed that mare to a speed stallion who is also a first year stallion. You have a much better chance of breaking even or maybe even making a small profit with this approach. Good luck in what ever your coarse of action.