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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:25 am 
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What an interesting article on broodmare selections.
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Thanks for your comments!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:59 pm 
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Wow, Shuvee (http://www.pedigreequery.com/shuvee)
was the kind of mare everyone would have
been expecting wonderful things from her at the breeding
shed. But her produce record was just a little bit above average.
There is much to be learn on "dream team" ideal crosses.
The aforementioned article makes everyone ponder on how inexact
is this science of breeding quality Thoroughbreds.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:11 pm 
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The "Shuvee" angle is just a very small aspect of this article.

I also really enjoyed the difference of opinions among the greatest
breeders on whether to put first:

01. "pedigree" over "conformation" and "race record" (or vice-versa on the latter two);
02. "conformation" over "pedigree and "race record" (or vice-versa on the latter two);
or even;
03. "race record" over "pedigree" and "conformation" (or vice-versa on the latter two).

What should be the order according to a poll among you as a reader?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:44 pm 
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Jorge writes of Shuvee: "But her produce record was just a little bit above average."

Shuvee produced three stakes winners (one of which set a NTR at Saratoga) and another was stakes-placed. I'd call that considerably better than average.

Another great race mare mentioned (and misspelled) in the article is Drumtop, who like Shuvee often beat colts. Drumtop was also the dam of three SWs and two SPL.

I saw them both race. Both were exciting but entirely different in type. Shuvee looked more like a colt than a lot of colts I've seen. The Jockey Club Gold Cup (won twice by Shuvee) contested at two miles was one of the great events of the racing season in this country -- especially when it was won by a 3YO which had proved himself in the classics -- and it often determined HOY. It ain't the same sport anymore. Oops, i forgot -- it isn't even a sport anymore -- now it's called an "industry". Awesome!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:44 pm 
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Also in the mix was Numbered Account - no slouch that one. As for my order of priority I have a couple of 'minimums' in the pedigree column, but after that, would aim for race record then pedigree and conformation. I'm not big on conformation b'cause I don't have a good eye for it.

that's a very inexact art -and the type of desirable conformation in the marketplace is a moving target. Often a small runner could outrun and outproduce many, but never get the best opportunity.

jm

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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:27 pm 
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I cast my vote for: pedigree, then race record, then conformation. I believe pedigree comes first, because I believe the most consistent class and ability, and the ability to pass it on, is in the blood. I would put race record next, since ideally a broodmare should have shown some potential, even if it was just in her posted workouts. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, because plenty of mares who have accomplished nothing on the track have proven to be good broodmares, frequently even better than mares who were superstars on the track. That is another reason why I believe pedigree ranks first, because so many top race mares do not breed back to their own racing level. Conformation is third on my list because plenty of mares with some level of conformation problem or even crookedness have produced well, and plenty of "poorly" conformed horses have raced well. As examples, Seattle Slew and Dynaformer were not conventionally attractive, yet they were both superior race horses and sires. I've also read (don't know if it is true) that some conformation issues, like crookedness, can result from how the foal lay in the womb. If that is true, I wouldn't expect that type of conformation issue to be hereditary. My two cents worth. 8)
P.S. Bonus points are awarded if the broodmare is a grey, eh Jorge? :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 12:35 pm 
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Actually, a mare who produces crooked foals (not genetically - not "bred" crooked) may do so because of an abnormality in the SHAPE and/or size of the womb. It is propounded that if the uterus is smaller on one side than the other you may / will get a crooked foal or, worse, a wry nose. The shape / size of the womb CAN be hereditary from a mare to her daughters so I think, when a mare has angular deformities that appear to be from that cause, I would cross her off my list.

For me, in a broodmare for racing stock (I breed only to race, not to sell) I want size/conformation FIRST, then pedigree and race record / immediate family race record / black type. I had a mare here who was absolutely bred in the purple - you would have positively drooled over the pedigree. She was not a great specimen and she threw nothing but rats.

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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:41 am 
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Affirmed1 wrote:
P.S. Bonus points are awarded if the broodmare is a grey, eh Jorge? :mrgreen:


Your comment makes me remember of a grey filly who had a very decent pedigree, who happened to be a sprinting
track record setter (oh yes, a track record setter!) and not much is said about her conformation; but went on to foal the great Spectacular Bid in 1976.

On the other hand your comment also makes me remember of a well pedigreed daughter of the mighty Discovery, who fashioned an imposing physical built but without much of a race record named Geisha, dam of Native Dancer.

Seems to me that there is some consensus among us over the prominence of the pedigree over race record and conformation. As for racing record vis-à-vis conformation seems like the former surpasses the latter but by a very slim
margin.

Am I right?


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 12:31 pm 
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Thanks for the article link, Jorge. I vote race record then pedigree then conformation, however, I am so close on the first two that I pretty much don't feel confident in taking one without the other on the young mares. All of the posters above have made great points and I've been in every camp at different points of trying to figure this out. I guess I am in a place though if starting with a young mare, my research leads me to believe that a reasonably fast mare, like single digit rags, or mid-80's to 100 beyers, gives a very slight edge over pedigree but not by a large margin, so my solution is to try to get both and decent conformation too while we are at it.

but then I struggle with how to define a good pedigree on a beer budget, or rather, what to give up if at least other things are there. Here's an example of a mare my partner and I claimed who had some racing ability and at least a few good things in her pedigree, but she is also somewhat shaky in her pedigree.

She's by Came Home. He could run, but he hasn't been a successful sire or broodmare sire. Knock her on that. There is no other blacktype in her first dam, although she has younger siblings coming who might change that. So knock her on that. However, her dam is very well bred (by Quiet American, out of a Spectacular Bid mare, out of a Northern Dancer mare, which is the exact same configuration as Cara Rafaela, dam of Bernardini). She is tail female to Mrs. Peterkin/Legendra (Zenyatta, Mizzen Mast, etc.) So there are some good things there, and plenty of graded blacktype in the 2nd through 4th dams. In terms of racing ability, this mare had at one time run in some tough races against graded types and is stakes placed.

But is she well-bred enough to be a high class broodmare? I sure hope so but that is where I get confused. Does one, for example, forgive the lack of any blacktype in the first dam besides the mare in question, if the second through fourth dams offer a lot of quality? Does one pass on this mare because Came Home isn't showing much success as a sire/broodmare sire?

Makes my head spin :)


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:37 am 
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In "A Treatise On Thoroughbred Selection", published in Great Britain in 1978, Donald Lesh, an American writer and breeding adviser who raced in England, summed up his research and reached these conclusions.

I have not found any evidence to support any methods advocated by academic theorists, which include those of inbreeding and out-crossing, nor have I found that their advocates present evidence on a scientific level. The few breeders who actually practiced systems of inbreeding or out-crossing were so few in number that these methods have had no impact on the characteristics of past or current thoroughbred populations.

Selection based on a relationship to horses which possessed racing ability is not supported by evidence. The value of mares closely related to top class race horses lies in their market value. They have no demonstrable breeding value which sets them apart from other mares which did not possess extraordinary racing ability.

There is a positive correlation between success in breeding a top class winner and extraordinary racing ability of the immediate parents. The evidence supports selection based on racing ability only. Apart from this, no correlations exist, whether based on lesser racing ability, relatedness to horses or racing ability or processes such as inbreeding or out-crossing. The vast majority of any sire's successful offspring are out of mares of little or no racing ability.

In other words, breed the best to the best and accept the fact that the rest is a crap shoot.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:34 am 
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Where can I see this article? The link is not working.


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