I think I'm getting it!

[pam]

I'm still trying to find a mare for my stallion L'ange Gabriel.
I've been doing my research from your suggestions and doing my best to take it all in. I know I won't ever understand it all, but then that's the fun, right?
I remember some of you saying I should stick with La Troienne. It's taken me this long, but I am beginning to realize what you all were saying.
So, now, if anybody knows of a mare with alot of "La" please let me know.
I'm in the Midwest, and would prefer to stay within a couple of states distance. But, then again, road trips are fun! And, my boy's happiness is worth it.
Thank you to all who have contributed. You truly have been a real blessing, and isn't that what we're suppose to be?
Have a blessed day! [/b]

[FOS]

hi pam

Why not keep it simple...and consider this.

If you can find a mare for your stallion L'ange Gabriel (by Ocala Slew and out of a Spend a Buck mare) that fits your price-range and has a first...and second dam sired by each...Mr Prospector and Northern Dancer (in either order)...(or any of their sons...grandsons or great grandsons etc) you'll probably have a chance for something good to happen.

If that's a difficult task for you to accomplish (for whatever reason/s)...why not consider making it even simpler and find a mare whose first dam alone is by Mr. Prospector or Northern Dancer (or any one of their sons...grandsons...great grandsons etc)...and don't worry about the second dam for now. Certainly there is concern re: who the second and third dams etc would be by...but you can cross that bridge when you get to it. For now...I suggest you keep it very simple.

This strategy may sound-like an oversimplification...but right now it may make the most sense and be relatively easy to accomplish...All Things Considered.

And don't forget...pedigree is not everything. With that in mind I recommend that you should attempt to find the best individual you can (taking into account during the selection process...your stallions strengths and weaknesses).

Best of luck in your search.

Respectfully

[Rick]

Consider Woodman or Private Account mares for you stallion.

[llbean]

I think a more important ancestor to get for this particular stallion than La Trioenne is the Great French Stallion Brantome, who was a profoundly powerful nick with Prince Rose. This stallion of course being awash in Prince Rose blood.

Also, his damsire Spend A Buck does best with South American (especially Brazilian) lines. Please see Spend A Buck's excellent siring record during his stint in that County and how much more successful he's been with South American blooded mares than American ones.

Even his best offspring concieved in North America (Antespend) was out of an Argentenian mare who happened to be exported to the United States!

Thus Siphon, a Brazilian bred inbred 6x6x6 to Brantome, would seem the ideal damsire for your stallion.

The individual mare is also very important, though.

-llbean

[FOS]

hi Rick ... hi llbean

Rick...considering that pam's stallion L'ange Gabriel is out of a Spend a Buck mare (and Spend a Buck is a grandson of the great Buckpasser (whose knees are often a topic of discussion when his name comes up)...don't you expect that breeding him to a Private Account daughter (as you recommended for consideration) thus creating a double-dose of Buckpasser in the prospective foal...might negatively impact the risk of the 'knees factor' ?

And Rick...Woodman (by Mr Prospector) is also out of a Buckpasser mare...although I definitely agree that selecting a broodmare by Mr Prospector (or one of his sons...grandsons...etc) might make a lot of sense.

And llbean...your suggestion to consider selecting a mare by Siphon(Brz) is very interesting.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[SemparQuel]

I think your stallion isn't worth a mare.
If you own some mares, search for a suitable stallion, instead.

[pam]

O.K., I'll bite, why don't you think I should use my stallion for breeding?

[BJ]

I think your stallion isn't worth a mare.
If you own some mares, search for a suitable stallion, instead.

O.k., some of us don't exactly mince words around here. But a little explanation of why you feel the stallion isn't "worth a mare", SemparQuel, would be the courteous thing to Pam, who IS trying to learn.

Just a few thoughts and questions from me, Pam...

1. What is your purpose in breeding your stallion? Breed to race? Breed to sell? Breed for sporthorse?

2. What is the LEAST you hope to achieve by the best breeding you can afford?

3. WHAT about your stallion do you think is WORTH passing on to a foal?

4. WHAT about your stallion do you hope he doesn't pass on to a foal?

I think before you go any further in "planning" and "searching" for a mate, those questions need to be answered "within you" and perhaps to those you are seeking advice from.

What will happen to the foal if it doesn't meet your expectations? Do you have a business plan?

The 2nd Dam of your stallion was not half bad in the breeding shed. (See below). So, you have two good examples of crosses that worked. Look to those to get some clues. (Black Tie Dinner did well with 4x5 Bold Ruler, 5x5x5 Princequillo and 5x5 Nashua, for instance.) BUT my biggest concern is not pedigree; it is WHAT caused the horse to have only one start. Did you own the horse when he raced? Do you know WHY he only raced one time? Because soundness issues are not something you want to pass on, most especially when there isn't a lot of success in breeding or racing from the 1st Dam.

If you can get by the soundness issue, and you can answer the four questions above and still feel "logically hopeful" that this stallion will throw a foal with a decent future, I would invest in an expert report on bloodlines that would cross well with you stallion. Go to Werkhorse.com to see what they have their. Mind you, most "experts" will look at you cross-eyed and tell you not to breed this horse. So, going in, be prepared to meet resistance.

IF, you cannot afford an expert report, though...with all due respect, you cannot afford to breed your stallion. Just mentioning this, because so many go into breeding without the slightest idea what it will cost, until it is too late. The highest cost, of course being the potential for a foal with no future that you cannot afford to care for.

And finally, I would look to Damascus lines for soundness and sporthorse potential, in case the foal turns out NOT to have any talent as a racehorse (if you do decide to breed).

Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2003


SLIPPIN N' SLYDING, 1983, On The Sly- Echoic (Fr) by Bold Lad.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI

1989 Toscanurse,f,Secreto 3 43 4 4 5 37,525 ( 88) 0.71
North America 2 YO Record 5 0 0 1 2,885 ( 70)
North America Turf Record 4 0 0 0 565 ( 76)
North America Dirt Sprints 25 4 3 3 29,695 ( 88)
North America Dirt Routes 14 0 1 2 7,260 ( 82)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 2 0 1 0 1,690 ( 76)
DP = 7-5-14-0-0 DI = 2.71 CD = 0.73 AWD = 7.00
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1989 369 $27,000 $36,000 wlg ( 2/ 2) $100,000
FTFFEB 1991 77 $20,000 $27,222 2yo (13/18) $100,000

1990 Princesa Quil,f,Spend A Buck 4 26 2 2 1 13,227 ( 76) 0.35
North America 2 YO Record 11 1 1 1 7,330 ( 76)
North America Dirt Sprints 20 2 1 0 10,242 ( 71)
North America Dirt Routes 6 0 1 1 2,980 ( 76)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 4 0 0 0 685 ( 66)
DP = 3-4-11-0-0 DI = 2.27 CD = 0.56 AWD = 7.00

1991 Arpia,f,Lost Code 2 5 0 0 0 390 ( 66) 0.05
North America 2 YO Record 1 0 0 0 70 ( 24)
North America Dirt Sprints 3 0 0 0 205 ( 49)
North America Dirt Routes 2 0 0 0 185 ( 66)
DP = 1-3-7-0-1 DI = 1.67 CD = 0.25
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 1992 2217 $15,000 $22,100 ylg (15/25) $15,000

1992 Slippin Clear,f,Cryptoclearance 6 69 13 10 8 212,058 ( 88) 2.17
North America 2 YO Record 8 1 0 0 9,558 ( 79)
North America Turf Record 5 0 1 0 5,282 ( 86)
North America Dirt Sprints 12 2 0 2 35,553 ( 84)
North America Dirt Routes 52 11 9 6 171,021 ( 88)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 11 2 2 1 34,832 ( 88)
DP = 7-9-11-0-1 DI = 3.31 CD = 0.75 AWD = 7.85
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEEJAN 1993 584 $8,500 $60,333 ylg (36/36) $20,000
KEESEP 1993 1200 $37,000 $60,333 ylg (20/36) $20,000

1993 Black Tie Dinner,c,Black Tie Affair (Ire) 9 97 7 12 19 253,099 (101) 2.30
North America 2 YO Record 6 1 0 1 24,660 ( 94)
North America Turf Record 13 1 2 2 32,073 ( 98)
North America Dirt Sprints 19 0 3 4 31,184 ( 94)
North America Dirt Routes 65 6 7 13 189,843 (101)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 19 0 3 7 51,498 ( 98)
DP = 5-1-8-0-0 DI = 2.50 CD = 0.79 AWD = 8.14
At 2 3rd Fort Springs S. -L (53,880)
At 6 3rd Razorback Handicap -G3 (125,000)
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 1994 1809 $55,000 $52,679 ylg (23/63) $15,000

1995 Raydar,c,Slew City Slew 6 56 5 4 5 53,216 ( 93) 0.50
North America 2 YO Record 7 0 0 1 1,835 ( 74)
North America Turf Record 3 0 0 0 0 ( 77)
North America Dirt Sprints 43 4 4 3 37,321 ( 89)
North America Dirt Routes 10 1 0 2 15,895 ( 93)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 2 0 0 1 935 ( 74)
DP = 5-1-8-0-0 DI = 2.50 CD = 0.79 AWD = 6.76
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1995 3446 $8,000 $8,040 wlg ( 2/ 5) $7,500
KEESEP 1996 2760 $20,000 $32,453 ylg ( 8/20) $7,500

1996 Sometime Righteous,g,Rubiano 3 14 2 1 3 16,749 ( 78) 0.48
North America 2 YO Record 2 0 0 0 1,275 ( 71)
North America Dirt Sprints 4 0 0 0 2,912 ( 71)
North America Dirt Routes 10 2 1 3 13,837 ( 78)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 1,275 ( 71)
DP = 7-7-14-2-0 DI = 2.33 CD = 0.63 AWD = 8.25
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1996 1171 $40,000 $106,375 wlg ( 8/ 8) $15,000
KEESEP 1997 772 $30,000 $85,207 ylg (21/29) $15,000

1997 Louise's Lady,f,Fort Chaffee Unraced
DP = 10-3-15-2-0 DI = 2.16 CD = 0.70
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEEJAN 1998 1363 $2,100 $12,185 ylg (12/13) $5,000

1998 Slide Zone,f,Wall Street Dancer 1 1 0 0 0 294 ( 54) 0.11
North America Dirt Sprints 1 0 0 0 294 ( 54)
DP = 4-4-11-1-0 DI = 2.08 CD = 0.55
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1998 3277 $3,500 $3,500 wlg ( 1/ 1) $3,500
WASSEP 1999 96 $11,000 $6,100 ylg ( 1/ 2) $3,500

2000 Skiding,c,Joyeux Danseur 1 2 0 0 1 1,520 ( 72) 0.28
North America Turf Record 2 0 0 1 1,520 ( 72)
DP = 5-1-16-0-6 DI = 1.00 CD = -0.04

2001 Slyding Brush,c,Broad Brush Unraced
DP = 5-17-17-0-1 DI = 3.21 CD = 0.63
SIRE 3.03 Spi, 444str, 43%2yo, 13%1st, 18%Mud/999sts, 14%Tf/999sts, AWD 7.5
DAM(sw) 0.94 Dpi, 7 2yostr/3wnr, 5%Mud/40sts, 5 Tfstr/1wnr, 8 Rtestr/4wnr, AWD 7.6
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 2002 1464 $5,500 $210,567 ylg (15/15) $100,000

2003 Unnamed,f,Skywalker
DP = 5-4-7-0-0 DI = 3.57 CD = 0.88

[pam]

Hey!
Thank you for the time and thought.
My purpose is to breed to race, most likely in IL, through someone I already know. My least hope is to see the baby do his best.
If you knew my stallion you might see why I want to pass on his genes. He's hard working, good looking, extremely willing. People that meet him say the same thing.
I don't really know what I don't want him to pass on, other than maybe his yellow feet. But, they've gotten extremely hard since he's been here. I've looked at a lot of stallions out there, I think mine just didn't get to grow up before he ran. He just wasn't mentally ready. I think, too, he's not a sprinter by any means. He's deffinately distance. If you could watch him run and run and run and run. I don't think he knows tired.
So, I think I need to find a mare with speed rather than stamina and I'd like to tie back into family's 1, 2, and 3. I think.
The nice thing for me about this baby is, if it doesn't want to run, that's O.K. The only real money I'll have invested is in the mare. I'll still have a horse that I can train to do whatever his bend is, which is what I do best. I just drive a schoolbus, cause it's fun.

[BJ]

Hey!
Thank you for the time and thought.
My purpose is to breed to race, most likely in IL, through someone I already know. My least hope is to see the baby do his best.
If you knew my stallion you might see why I want to pass on his genes. He's hard working, good looking, extremely willing. People that meet him say the same thing.
I don't really know what I don't want him to pass on, other than maybe his yellow feet. But, they've gotten extremely hard since he's been here. I've looked at a lot of stallions out there, I think mine just didn't get to grow up before he ran. He just wasn't mentally ready. I think, too, he's not a sprinter by any means. He's deffinately distance. If you could watch him run and run and run and run. I don't think he knows tired.
So, I think I need to find a mare with speed rather than stamina and I'd like to tie back into family's 1, 2, and 3. I think.
The nice thing for me about this baby is, if it doesn't want to run, that's O.K. The only real money I'll have invested is in the mare. I'll still have a horse that I can train to do whatever his bend is, which is what I do best. I just drive a schoolbus, cause it's fun.

So.... in other words, you want a chance to produce a foal by a horse, you believe is untested on the racetrack, but had a ton of potential, so YOU can give it every chance, YOUR way...the right way, and enjoy and take responsibiliity for the journey, WHEREVER it may take you?

Sounds like a wonderful plan and goal! (Much like the one I have with my partner.) If my analysis of your "reasoning" behind the goal is correct, I would advertise to Lease a mare from the #8 or #9 or #4 female families and stay realistic. The #9 & #4 female families are KNOWN to spark good things with your stallion's female family. Good surprises happen when you stay realistic, IMO. (Damascus came from a #8 female family when bred to a #1 female family sire [Sword Dancer]. ) Nasrullah is a product of the #1 & #9 combination. (But we all have our preferences.)

Try studying some of today's and yesterday's horses, that YOU think you would like to emmulate in producing a foal. Study those sire and dam family combinations. Obviously, you are working with a #1 female family stud, so unless you find #1 female family in either the sire or the dam of the horse you think represents what you would like to achieve, you can't use the horse as a "model" for your breeding purposes.

Stick with "known" and look for the BEST (that you can afford) within that "known" quantity. If you MUST seek speed, as your primary goal, look to Bold Ruler (from #8 female family), who is by Nasrullah (from #9 female family). This is SOLID quality speed, as long as the soundness is firmly established in the surrounding pedigree.

Contrary to some other advice above, I would stay away from Mr. Prospector. Northern Dancer is fine but you mentioned feet problems in your stallion, so be careful of too much Native Dancer close up (he had ankle and feet problems).

Some good articles to "awaken" some insight into soundness issues and dangerous inbreeding. Keep in mind, there are always exceptions and those who will totally disagree.:

http://www.pedigreepost.com/archives/So ... unter.html
http://www.reines-de-course.com/the_pha ... isease.htm
http://www.horse-canada.com/html/articl ... spr.99.htm


IMO, way too much is made of the #1 family and La Troienne. Unless you have a ton of money, to start from scratch, with a great stud and a mare with La Troienne no further back than the 5th generation, AND your goal is the Kentucky Derby, I wouldn't focus too much importance on finding a mare with La Troienne. Even then, Doxa was a product of #1 & #9 breeding as was Black Helen's best, Big & Better. Back to earth...stick with what is "known" to work with your stallion's female family and try to improve on it.

Invest in an expert report or two on what might work best with your stallion. The least that will happen...you will learn more than you know now.

Then, the mare has to pass conformation standards and not have soundness issues. Easy...right???

Best of luck to you...May your hard work and good heart be rewarded with a journey beyond your greatest dreams.