A.P. Indy-- false advertising?

[Green Hills]

After reading all this... I am now just praying for our baby (Voodoo Dancer's first foal, due any day now)

My goodness...will it be sound? Correct? Big feet, little feet? Long legs, short legs, fat, skinny, pretty, ugly...

The question for us will most likely be...is it fast? And does it have something between the ears other than Elmer's glue? And in a nutshell...all the rest is just stuff...

[llbean]

Hi ef,

I think you're right on!

I'll just add that the stats indicate that Storm Cat is the better sire of racehorses in the exact same fashion that the stats indicate that Danzig was a even better sire of racehorses than Storm Cat.

"As Danzig was to Storm Cat, so Storm Cat is to AP Indy."

I have a feeling that they'll never be another Danzig, but Storm Cat is the closest to him today in quality of immediate offspring.

BTW, I could not agree with you more on Mineshaft's early ability being hidden by the turf.

-llbean

[freddymo]

Roguelet, I am guessing that if the Phipps family came to you,and offered all of there very best broodies to breed to your AP Indy son you would jump for joy. Unfortunately, I do not remember them having a graded winner frm INDY himself never mind a son of Indy. I believe they have given Pulpit a try on some of there stock recently so we will see if he can get one to the winners circle in a graded race. I find it more then a statisical event that the same broodies bred to SC,MrP, seeking Unbridled,and Danzig can produce graded winners and AP INDY can't. Again i know so little about this sport that my opinion is of little value, but it does make you wonder alittle. All of that blue blood all of the that AAA quality racing stock and Indy gets them Nada.

[Coquinerie]

I didnt mean to "pit" Storm Cat and Indy against one another, it just was interesting to me that the "go to" classic sire with the best book in the world has yet to accomplish what the "go to" 2 yo sire has.

I happen to love a few Indy sons and grandsons better than any current Storm Cat son. So I have nothing against hime obviously. I think he may be a better sire of sires than actual sire. Which is saying a lot.

I must admit though, the Phipps reference is very interesting.

[Betsy]

I didnt mean to "pit" Storm Cat and Indy against one another, it just was interesting to me that the "go to" classic sire with the best book in the world has yet to accomplish what the "go to" 2 yo sire has.

I happen to love a few Indy sons and grandsons better than any current Storm Cat son. So I have nothing against hime obviously. I think he may be a better sire of sires than actual sire. Which is saying a lot.

I must admit though, the Phipps reference is very interesting.

What's interesting is that it appears that Indy is going to be a much better sire of sires than a broodmare sire. I think a lot of pedigree experts thought he might take after Secreteriat in this regard, given his female family, but so far - nothing of note. On the other hand, Malibu Moon has done very well and Pulpit's been pretty good (but definitely not the superstar stud I expected him to be).

[FOS]

hi Betsy

I expect that A.P. Indy will be a wonderful broodmare sire...and sire of sires.

As you pointed out..."Malibu Moon has done very well" already (siring some nice horses including 2-year-old champ Declan's Moon) and Pulpit has sired some very nice horses also (Sky Mesa, Essence of Dubai, Tapit, Stroll etc).

I expect that you will hear plenty from some other A.P. sons...

...A young one that is being given a HUGE opportunity is Full Mandate...he is GRAND ! As I have mentioned before...he is in very good hands and attracted a very nice book (not just quantity but also some quality) his first season at stud (2004)...he could be a good one. He is quite the eyeful and covered approx 150 mares last year.

Respectfully

[Betsy]

FOS, I am sooo happy about Malibu Moon. I was so unhappy when he injured himself and was retired, because he had tons of ability. Actually, I was nervous when they moved him from Country Life, which is a great MD farm, to KY because some studs peter out after they find themselves a small fish in a big pond. It looks like MM will continue, but we won't know for sure until his first KY crops hit the track. He's been a really pleasant surprise - I hope it continues.

I've read that Full Mandate is a beautiful horse - if he does well regionally, I'll be happy. Seattle Slew had many good sires, in different regions of the country, and I hope Indy can carry on the tradition. I've got my fingers crossed that Mineshaft will carry on the Bold Ruler line as his sire and gransire have done....

[LSB]

Roguelet, I am guessing that if the Phipps family came to you,and offered all of there very best broodies to breed to your AP Indy son you would jump for joy. Unfortunately, I do not remember them having a graded winner frm INDY himself never mind a son of Indy. I believe they have given Pulpit a try on some of there stock recently so we will see if he can get one to the winners circle in a graded race.

Phipps mare, Colonial Review, has been bred to Pulpit twice. The first result is five year old mare, Provincial, a good allowance winner in NY and Florida of more than 100K, no black type yet. Her younger full sister, Universe, is a yearling of 2005.

[Roguelet]

ef: I won't really disagree with you, but notice my disclaimer... I am keeping my opinion based on my own limited personal experience. I am mostly focusing on one certain A.P. Indy son and one certain Storm Cat son. Colts sired by these two are not "retired early to stud" and do race for a few years, so the tendencies can be noted.

The Storm Cat son's offspring do very well early on but seem, to me at least, to get "washed up" with age.

The A.P. Indy son's offspring don't do well early but do get better.

Around here, they're running against the same horses as 5YOs that they did as 2YOs. So, yes, they ARE getting better... or maybe all the other horses just get worse. But, since I know a lot of these horses personally, I can vouch for the change in their physique, attitude, competitiveness and determination as they age. Many of these horses just don't put their heart, soul, and mind into their races until they mature. Once they get a little maturity, their competitiveness surfaces, they want to win, they turn in faster times, etc... not in all cases mind you, but in enough to make me believe that the trend is there. Not to mention the fact that I've seen these horses continue to grow and mature physically as they age... as 2YOs and 3YOs they are only a fraction, mentally and physically, of what they will become.

Freddymo: You know, since we all know that will never happen, I hadn't given it any thought. Oh, you're probably right... I would love for some of his offspring to have the chances that some of the higher-dollar horses have. However, since I haven't paid the slightest bit of attention to the mares that the Phipps own, I can't really say whether I would be excited about the actual matches or just the fact that they were the Phipps' mares! I mean, isn't it possible that their stock just doesn't match well with the Indy line? Or maybe they aren't raised or trained in a way that benefits them as individuals?

Before someone jumps on that... I am in no way trying to indicate that these horses aren't cared for... but come on, not every horse thrives in the same environment. We have mares that match well, IMO, with the Indy line. A couple (1 in particular) will also do well with the Storm Cat line, but that's not what we're focusing on, so that's just not what we have. Here's more what I was getting at... and this is just a rambling thought that I've had in the past but never voiced because I'm fully aware of how silly it sounds

We have had, by far, more Indy line foals to deal with over the years than foals of other bloodlines. We've had only one Indy line foal get hurt, and that was SO not his fault (and he completely recovered!) Other injuries have occured to other lines that we've had... one to a Miswaki line foal (of which we've only had two, and it took over 1 full year of training to get the other one over her "issues" and finally to the races!), 2 out of 2 other Mr. P line foals (exact same type of injury, fully recoverable, just a pain in the butt to deal with), 1 out of 1 Buckpasser line foal (again, fully recoverable). Now, out of I don't even know how many Indy line foals... nada.

Here are some personal (as in my own... I'm not saying this is true across the board) observations: our Indy foals hate to be stalled. Our Indy foals run and play HARD (really, really hard) with the other horses. Our Indy foals have very calculating minds and THINK about things... they're smart.

Maybe, just maybe, keeping Indy line foals in protected stalled environments (aka headed for the sales, etc.) just doesn't do them justice... just as some people are perfectly happy and mentally content at a desk job and others simply can't handle that. I know this is a real jump, off the wall, totally insane, whatever... but these are just thoughts that I've had while observing the offspring of different horses throughout the years...

OK, waiting for all the "you idiot" comments to come rolling in...
(Hey, you know what they say about opinions....)

[Ruffian]

I think we'd get on like a house on fire!!! lol

Personally I think your opinion is very well researched and practical.

There are lines I wouldn't even THINK about using again as I have either had 1/2/3 from the line, or just seen them at the sales/friends/racing, and just wouldnt touch them...

Good luck with your 'Indy' foals

[ef]

I'm feeling a little bad about my role in this thread because I feel like I'm playing an "anti-Indy" role, and I want to make sure that I communicate that I am NOT anti-Indy. I just believe that so much of how we view our top stallions is based on propaganda and not necessarily on the facts.

With this in mind, I'd like to bring up the whole Indy as a sire of sire thing. Who knows, he may turn out to be the next great sire of sires, but that it is WAY too early to judge. Like Storm Cat, his sons have been inconsistent and in no way simply (IMHO) "a success." His two best sons with a sizeable number of foals to race are Pulpit (who has been extremely well supported throughout his career) and Malibu Moon (who has earned his "success" the hard way). Taking a closer look at the stats of these stallions' runners, 3 years old and up:

Malibu Moon: 129 foals 3+, 60% runners, 38% winners, 3.8% SWs (2 GSWs out of 5 total SWs). AEI 1.80, CI 1.09.

Pulpit: 213 foals 3+, 79% runners, 49% W, 6% SWs (7 GSWs/13 SWs), 2.21 AEI, 3.36 CI.

Malibu Moon now stands for 30,000; Pulpit for 60,000. That is some serious change for a stallion with some pretty non-stellar statistics (Malibu Moon) and a stallion who seriously downgrades his mares (Pulpit). It's just ironic to me, because I see the same trend with Storm Cat stallions, who get seriously bashed- their sheer percentages are not elite (though they mostly have much larger foal crops than these Indy stallions, which will naturally depress statistics), but like these two A.P. Indy stallions, they can get top, top runners. So why are people using the same general performance results to give Indy the thumbs up and Storm Cat the thumbs down? I find it truly puzzling, especially because Storm Cat has many more quality, proven sons at stud (Storm Boot, Forest Wildcat, Harlan, Forestry, Tale of the Cat, Hennessy, Tabasco Cat) than Indy does. I'm not saying that these Storm Cat sons are necessarily the new champion sires of the universe; however, the ones I listed have largerly better statistics than these two sons of A.P. Indy who are so lauded for being successful.

Again, I am by no means dismissing A.P. Indy as a sire of sires. I just think that we would all do better to take a step back and try to be absolutely objective when evaluating these stallions' performances.

Ilbean- I agree with you 100% on Danzig. His offspring can do it all- turf, dirt, short, long. They broke the mold when they made Danzig, but I do think that Storm Cat is very similar to Danzig in his offsprings' propensity for all surfaces and in their sheer classiness and brilliance.

FOS- Your absolute belief in Full Mandate is extraordinary- I can't wait to see his offspring on the track!

ef

hi Betsy

I expect that A.P. Indy will be a wonderful broodmare sire...and sire of sires.

As you pointed out..."Malibu Moon has done very well" already (siring some nice horses including 2-year-old champ Declan's Moon) and Pulpit has sired some very nice horses also (Sky Mesa, Essence of Dubai, Tapit, Stroll etc).

I expect that you will hear plenty from some other A.P. sons...

...A young one that is being given a HUGE opportunity is Full Mandate...he is GRAND ! As I have mentioned before...he is in very good hands and attracted a very nice book (not just quantity but also some quality) his first season at stud (2004)...he could be a good one. He is quite the eyeful and covered approx 150 mares last year.

Respectfully