Lonhro to Darley Kentucky

HJ · Postby HJ » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:29 pm

An interesting move. I suspect the main motivation is to breed a horse to contest and maybe win the Kentucky Derby given the dearth of stamina apptitude amongst sires in the USA.

Lonhro is undoubtedly a good sire, I do however believe that he has had a huge assist from the quality of mares that he has covered. If an AEI/CI index was available for Australian sires then he would be a downgrader. He is capable of breeding a champion from the opportunity afforded him much like Darley sires Elusive Quality,and Bernardini who depend on high quality mares to pull them through. The exposure to mares representing the worlds best bloodlines in Kentucky will make him a great broodmare sire if he doesn't quite make an impact as a sire in the USA.

He is a magnificent individual and was as tough and gutsy as they make them. Lonhro will be the modern day Princequillo.

Fireslam · Postby **Fireslam** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:47 am

HJ wrote:An interesting move. I suspect the main motivation is to breed a horse to contest and maybe win the Kentucky Derby given the dearth of stamina apptitude amongst sires in the USA.

Lonhro is undoubtedly a good sire, I do however believe that he has had a huge assist from the quality of mares that he has covered. If an AEI/CI index was available for Australian sires then he would be a downgrader. He is capable of breeding a champion from the opportunity afforded him much like Darley sires Elusive Quality,and Bernardini who depend on high quality mares to pull them through. The exposure to mares representing the worlds best bloodlines in Kentucky will make him a great broodmare sire if he doesn't quite make an impact as a sire in the USA.

He is a magnificent individual and was as tough and gutsy as they make them. Lonhro will be the modern day Princequillo.

Im not sure thats true. If the info here at Pedquery can be believed, it seems that his stakes winner Beaded is by far the best foal of his non stakes winning dam, G2 winner Pinwheel is by far the best foal out of his non winning dam, G1 winner Clown Master is by far the best foal of his stakes winning dam, G1 winner Denman is by far the best foal of his winning dam. So far I havent seen where he has needed top class mares to produce top class.

HJ · Postby HJ » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:32 pm

Fireslam - the converse may also apply, Lonhro is the sire of more poor or moderate performers out of other mares who have been more successful when mated with other stallions.

Using the basis of your argument lets look at downgrader Elusive Quality and the record of the mares that bred his best winners:-

Ascuthey the dam of Raven's Pass has had five foals by other sires one of whom is Gigawatt a GR3 winner who is nowhere near the class of Raven's Pass.
I'll Get along the dam of Smarty Jones has bred nothing else of note from 7 other foals, two have won one race.
Kobla the dam of Quality Road has also not produced another stakes class horse. Besides Quality Road she has bred MT. Kobla a 2 race winner.

I would be quite confident that Lonhro is a downgrader, however until AEI/CI data is made availble we won't know for sure. I would love to be proven wrong.

Fireslam · Postby **Fireslam** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:43 pm

Seems to me you just contradicted your statement that said...

He is capable of breeding a champion from the opportunity afforded him much like Darley sires Elusive Quality,and Bernardini who depend on high quality mares to pull them through.

HJ · Postby HJ » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:31 am

Oh really …. please explain. I have just given an example of a downgrading sire capable of breeding champions. Perhaps you don’t understand the concept of downgrading sires.

Shammy Davis · Postby **Shammy Davis** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:22 pm

Lonhro's pedigree is an outcross and TB history lesson by itself. RELIC (1945) is in the fourth removed and it is said that WAR RELIC was the best sire of all of MOW's sons. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that once he arrives at Darley KY, that the ghosts of Colonel Bradley and Sam Riddle (along with Marion Dupont Scott looking over their shoulders) are not seen haunting the stallion barn. We can only hope that the Sam Riddle ghost does not try to leverage the spirits of other long dead breeders and owners to suggest the mares Lonhro will breed.

I can see Louis jumping out of skin with knowledge that TB Savior is coming. I think a headache is coming on. I guess there is no chance we could keep this a secret. :roll:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/lonhro

Shammy Davis · Postby **Shammy Davis** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:39 pm

HJ wrote:

. . . Perhaps you don’t understand the concept of downgrading sires.

Okay, I'll bite at this one. I don't is my answer. Is this concept based on the theoretical, the scientific, or the anecdotal? The concept of downgrading sires sounds interesting particularly if the mare owner has a tight budget. Please explain.

Your comment about LONHRO becoming the next PRINCEQUILO has peaked my interest.

kimberley mine · Postby **kimberley mine** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:04 pm

HJ wrote:Oh really …. please explain. I have just given an example of a downgrading sire capable of breeding champions. Perhaps you don’t understand the concept of downgrading sires.

Or perhaps there's the middle of the road, in which yes, overall a horse does not outproduce his mares BUT the likelihood of getting one that hits big is large enough to be worth the gamble.

That's where Elusive Quality lives, for sure. When they are good, they are very, very good. They don't just win stakes, they win stakes at the highest levels and they win a lot of them. Lonhro may or may not be there; without the statistics computed it's hard to say.

wallinga · Postby **wallinga** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:08 pm

Barcaldine wrote:Wallinga,

Are you aware of any temperament issues with LONHRO and/or his progeny? I've seen his sire and grandsire at Cambridge Stud on several occasions and both, especially ST, bordered on diabolical.

I'd be very careful in sending Storm Cat or Roberto line mares to him if he shows any such proclivities.

Yes Sir Tristram was a lunatic and Zabeel can be a little hard to deal with as he has aged. Lonny's sire Octagonal is an absolute gentleman, every time I go up there I pop my head into his box to say hi. (Lonhro is the first Australian HOTY to be sired by a HOTY by the way.)

Lonhro was the most relaxed race horse I think I have ever seen, and his stock seem to have inherited similar traits. As he has gotten older, Lonhro has become a little nippy (mainly due to the fatc that like Smarty Jones, many fans make pilgrimages to the farm to pay him a visit and have their photo's taken, I think he has very little time for rest) but aside from that is still a fairly relaxed sort of horse.

El Prado mares are no brainers for this horse, two crosses of special two crosses of Sir Ivor.

he'll be worth breeding to that's all I can say.

DDT · Postby **DDT** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:28 am

Although Darley will support him, his sire line has all but vanished here and appears in N.A. pedigrees through the distaff side, in my opinion, he will not get many outside mares. As far as the Princequillo comment, time will tell but I think you will have to wait a long, long time to see another Princequillo and I would feel pretty safe in saying I do not think that any sire from down under will accomplish that feat.

DDT

Bohemia · Postby **Bohemia** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:28 am

Go back about 60-70 years and American stud farms and breeders would have welcomed this import with open arms (and wallets). Look how many of our best sires from the 30's-40's and 50's came from overseas, albeit not Australia. Nowadays a stallion like Lonhro is looked upon with curiosity but not much enthusiasm - perhaps when his first American-sired crop hits the races he will prove his critics wrong.

Tappiano · Postby **Tappiano** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:54 am

I hope he gets a great big book but MY motivation is because if he is sought after that may send a signal to the other farms to import MORE bloodlines. I can't send a mare to him or I'd try in a heart beat. SOMEONE has to be able to prove that infusing new bloodlines has a benefit.

wallinga · Postby **wallinga** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:38 pm

Bohemia wrote:Go back about 60-70 years and American stud farms and breeders would have welcomed this import with open arms (and wallets). Look how many of our best sires from the 30's-40's and 50's came from overseas, albeit not Australia. Nowadays a stallion like Lonhro is looked upon with curiosity but not much enthusiasm - perhaps when his first American-sired crop hits the races he will prove his critics wrong.

Bernborough, Shannon, Noholme, Sky High and Strawberry Road didn't exactly stink up the joint as sires despite having limited opportunity.

Joltman · Postby **Joltman** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:11 am

Bohemia wrote:Go back about 60-70 years and American stud farms and breeders would have welcomed this import with open arms (and wallets). Look how many of our best sires from the 30's-40's and 50's came from overseas, albeit not Australia. Nowadays a stallion like Lonhro is looked upon with curiosity but not much enthusiasm - perhaps when his first American-sired crop hits the races he will prove his critics wrong.

Don't forget Royal Gem - imported from Aus who was the sire of Derby Winner Dark Star. Another colt, Royal Bay Gem, finished fourth in that same Derby. He shows up here and there in pedigrees today (ie. the BC Winner Prized). Unfortunately, his best son, Brass Hat, was gelded. I'm sure there are others out there, with My Dad George and others in the pedigree.

jm

Barcaldine · Postby **Barcaldine** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:26 am

Wallinga makes an excellent point in exhorting the success of previous Australian imports. None of these horses stood to high quality books of mares, with the possible exception of Strawberry Road, but their progeny proved competitive at the highest levels of racing here. Certainly *Noholme II--who began his stallion career in Arkansas at a $250 stud fee--is one of the great American success stories.

LONHRO's pedigree is essentially 75% American/English, far more than the other imports. His New Zealand female line is one of the most profound in the southern hemisphere. Top-class stallion GROSVENOR is a product of the GAY POSS line.

I accept Wallinga's comment that LONHRO is an attractive horse; photos of him confirm his opinion. My only question mark is if he will sire dirt horses. Then again, that was one of my concerns about STRAWBERRY ROAD and his foals performed better on dirt than on grass!

Depending on the stud fee I plan to give LONHRO a serious look for 2012.