OK, here's a Jeopardy question - Awful Sires for $400, Alex:

[Rokeby Forever]

To be honest, I'm tired of thinking that sons of Storm Cat will be successful - there are plenty of them around, excellently bred, that stand for $2,500. Even Cat Thief, as well bred and accomplished as he was, stands for only $10,000. I even remember the days thinking that Tabasco Cat had a chance to be a decent sire. At what point does the Earth get too polluted with Storm Cats all over the place?

Is Forestry worth $125,000 when his only millionaire is Discreet Cat, thanks to Dubai purses? And people might consider him Storm Cat's most successful son at stud, unless you want to take your chances at $300,000 for a Giant's Causeway foal.

[pokeyman]

Yeah, but what you're forgetting is it's NEVER just about the sire!!

Great sires hail from great mares that produce stallions.

Are these Storm Cat sons from sire producing mares lines?

Storm Cat does seem to pass his ability to sire on more than the average stallion-statistics wise. Obviously, that's his female family. No, he is no Northern Dancer or Mr. Prospector....but who is?

I am sure you will find the best sons of any stallion trace to great producing-not necessarily performing- mares.

All things being equal with regard to female family, would I take a Storm Cat son over say a Rahy, Broad Brush, or Lear Fan? Absolutely. Rahy, Broad Brush, or Lear fan have yet to produce a son that is above average..though in Rahy and Lear Fan's case I would snag a daughter in a heartbeat! It's all about genetics....

[FOS]

hi Rokeby Forever

At what point does the Earth get too polluted with Storm Cats all over the place?

The underachieving sires expose themselves for what they really are (regardless who they're by)...no matter how good the advertising, spin and promotion. Conversely...the cream will rise, regardless who the sire.

Is Forestry worth $125,000 when his only millionaire is Discreet Cat, thanks to Dubai purses?

If the market will bear it and his book can be filled based on a $125k stud fee, arguably Forestry's worth it...but from my perspective, Forestry has absolutely...positively...NOT done enough to justify me paying $125k (to get to him).

And people might consider (Forestry) Storm Cat's most successful son at stud, unless you want to take your chances at $300,000 for a Giant's Causeway foal.

Giant's Causeway has been the beneficiary of a HUGE opportunity and a sensational never-ending marketing & promotion machine...but he is arguably NOT living up to his home-grown press releases and the consistent barrage of promotion by his connections. Arguably he is not the sire that his connections likely WISH he really was.

I would suggest that the bloom is off the flower.

As for his $300k advertised stud fee in 2006 (which you referenced)...it doesn't take 20/20 vision to recognize that Giant's Causeway's offspring are not (for the most part) attracting the kind of support at the sales, to justify a HUGE stud fee...as a result there is ever-diminishing support by breeders, unwilling to pay a huge (and arguably unjustified) stud fee for him.

Respectfully

[Rokeby Forever]

Pokeyman - Well, My Charmer didn't exactly come from a sire producing family. OK if you want to claim Seattle Slew being a "freak," but Storm Cat hasn't come close to siring an AP Indy, and he'e been bred to Phipps blood, Rokeby blood, Claiborne blood, tons of Lane's End blood....just about any top mare family there is.

Broad Brush seems to have finally sired a good stallion in Include. He and Mongoose are Broad Brush's last chances at siring a stallion, but Include is off to a really good start. As for Rahy (he and Cozzene are my 2 alltime favorites), he's a small colt and more a "breed to race" type stallion that will occasionally pop up with a real good one. I'm not sure that Fantastic Light thinks of himself as a filly, but Rahy can also sire a pretty darn good colt.

Hi FOS, nice to meet you. Forestry is worth $125,000 only if you're looking to sell...his yearlings go for 3X or 4X stud fee, and even something like The Green Monkey can pop up. But if you're looking to race, that $125,000 is a disasterous investment.

Giant's Causeway seems to have found a niche in Europe. He's a busted balloon here in the US (even with First Samurai). Can you think of a Giant's Causeway that's gotten better with age and racing? I can't. Maybe the problem with him is Coolmore - their stallions are bred to anything with 4 legs owned by someone with a checkbook, so maybe if there was better mare selection for him, he'd be worth at least 1/3 of that $300,000 fee.

[pokeyman]

Hi, Rokeby!!

Well, you made some very good points! I see you DON'T like Storm Cat (actually, me either- but for dispsition issues). However, even though I don't care for SC, you truly can't argue with his numbers.

This is probably going to tick you off (sorry) but I think AP Indy is WAY overrrated. He has yet to improve his mares like Storm Cat, Cozzene, Broad Brush, or Danzig, etc. Yeah, if you were breeding his book you would hit some home runs too! Of course, I also think Seattle Slew was way overrated (flame suit has been put on). Go easy!!

I wouldn't tag Include as the next great sire based on 2 fillies!!! We will have to wait and see. Remember, how many crops has he sired? How many sons are ABOVE AVERAGE? Zero. Case in point-Concern.

Same with Rahy. Just because he sired a great racehorse in Fantastic Light doesn't mean FL will make a great sire. BTW- Rahy and Rainbow Quest are my 2 favorites so great minds think alike!!

Cozzene got nobody until Alphabet Soup. I LOVE Cozzene so hoping AS holds steady and will carry on the line...Cozzene's numbers are sick!! I am so happy to see his stud fee fall...now, if it will only fall another $25,000 I'll be golden!

Isn't GC the sire of the probably Eclipse Champion Turf horse, Aragorn? I think he will be more of a turf sire so you can kiss US success goodbye. Of course, I live for turf but that's another issue....

On another issue, Pleasant Colony really flopped as a sire of sires too. How many foals did he have-thousands and Pleasant Tap (who just happens to stand at a big time KY farm and was given awesome mare books his entire career) is the only above average sire left standing. He IS from a good female family though...But I wouldn't bet the house on a PC either....

My pet peeve is the ND/MP nick. Way too many out there. Breeders are breeding themselves into a corner. I am seeing triple ND-Double MP kids now. Yikes!!! Not good....

We need to go back to the outcross sires-Broad Brush, Cozzene, Runaway Groom/Rahy, Roberto blood..Dynaformer/Saint Ballado, etc.

Happy Holidays!

[ratherrapid]

interesting posts. i'm an old timer. been around a while. if u think storm cat is overrated, or AP Indy, or Slew (not), take a look back at the years I had endure ND, Danzig and MP as the top rated sires. those were the true fakes. what i've seen over time is that they're breeding faster legitimate race horses now. whatever u want to say about storm cat and AP indy, their progeny mixes seem to produce fast horses. take a look at the tapes of sea of secrets as an example, and principle secret in the cup. those horses can scat.

my opinion is that if u just look at the numbers u only find a few legitimate sires who stamp their foals in sufficient numbers to be great. i think storm cat and indy have done that and they're legitimate. they stand up both numbers wise and from appearance.

i'm unable to explain broad brush. i had a son of broad brush that i bought. major league horse. never raced cause he kept falling down. dangerous. best i can say, if u look at all the broadbrushes, they do not look like BB, none of them. he never reproduced himself.

now, as for my Vision and Verse, he's immature as a yearling, and he's athletic and fast. that's about all i can say about VV. Interesting breeding. probably late developers. he'll be shipped out next year to PA or Iowa.

[ASB]

Pokeyman - Well, My Charmer didn't exactly come from a sire producing family. OK if you want to claim Seattle Slew being a "freak," .

Wow, VERY mis-informed!

Seattle Slew is tail-female to Myrtlewood/Frizette, obviously through his dam My Charmer. You say that's not a sire producing family? Think again.

It has given us, arguably, two of the best stallions of the last 20 years in both Seattle Slew and Mr. Prospector (5th and 4th dam is Mrytlewood, respectively). Its probably a good reason why Indy does so well over Mr. P mares.

There seems to be a lot of negativity to your posts concerning Storm Cat blood... the better stallions from his line will be sorted out, but that takes time.

Before you jump all over a line and harp on it's "saturation", at least realize its the way of the world. 10 years ago, Seattle Slew line stallions were all the rage, as was Mr. Prospector stallions.

Mr. P proved a very reliable source of sire blood, but many of his sons were sent to the corners of the country and over-seas once they werent producing...

Seattle Slew has a few decent sons at stud, but his only real world class son is A.P. Indy who is essentially responsible for keeping the line going, and most of his sons are finding work in regional markets for those $2,500 fees you keep bringing up.

Its both ridiculous and ignorant to harp on one sire line and not at least give attention to the others who are in the same boat. Again, the way of the industry... Indy is getting just as many sons who have no business at stud, many of which are from better families than those same Storm Cat sons you've been bringing attention to.

To turn focus on Rahy, most his better runners have been fillies. The few colts who have run well, are just now seeing their foals hit the track. The jury is still out, and I for one wouldnt be surprised to see them do admirably. The Blushing Groom line is tenacious...

Im not picking on you Rokeby, but you've been VERY opinionated which is fine, but at least make sure your facts are right before you live by them.

[Rokeby Forever]

Hmmm....I feel as I'm running for office - some support my views and others don't. That's what I LOVE about racing, as opposed to any other sport...no sport generates as many diverse opinions as racing. Yes, I'm opinionated and definitely over-support stallions I like, but...what the heck?

ASB: (1) What I meant to say about My Charmer is that there isn't a top sire produced in her last 3 generations. If you want to go back to Frizette, I suppose I could go back to La Troienne and then claim that there are 1,000s of colts out there that have sire potential because La Troienne is in the 5th or 6th generation.

(2) I'm not a big fan of AP Indy myself (many are just too big and they're often very good or very unsound), and his sons (Aptitude, Stephen Got Even, Albert The Great....) have yet to show any kind of consistency. With that in mind, I wouldn't be so fast to shell out $100,000 for Bernardini. No doubt the commercial market will love Bernardini foals no matter what they look like, but my jury is out.

(3) Rahy is a small stallion (15.3, I believe), which has been a major turn-off through his career. I like him as a "breed to race" stallion, much as Cozzene, because they aren't going to sire the next big stallion, but you have a shot at having a top class racehorse every time you breed to one of them. Cozzene moves up almost every mare he's bred to, and Rahy is just a personal favorite.

(4) I said include was off to a good start, not that he was the next "great sire." I think for his fee, he's done well for himself. More than we can say for Buddha, huh?

(5) The Pleasant Colony line has been a "flop" overall, but the jury is still out on Pleasantly Perfect. However, based on Behrens being completely devoid of any genetic material, those paying $40,000 for Pleasantly Perfect are really rolling the dice.

(6) You're absolutely right...and Roberto blood, to me, is the classiest blood around. Roberto was a hot-headed horse, but I love his blood...I can't say enough about the Dynaformers (they can even jump - ask McDynamo), and Red Ransom is such a perfect outcross for so many mares.

And, to whomever criticized Danzig - shame on you! Danehill might be the top stallion in the world and no son of ND has sired with such versatility. Granted, he's the damsire of cursed Fu Peg (the biggest busted balloon that ever lived), but I still love Danzig blood - no matter how many $2,500 stallions of his you can name. LOL!

[Rokeby Forever]

Further on Danzig: Are you telling me that War Front at $12,500 isn't a better value than Bluegrass Cat standing at $50,000?

Don't ask me who's going to flock to Bluegrass Cat at $50,000. Isn't he the same horse that managed to defeat Flashy Bull (remember him?), but still lost to Deputy Glitters at Tampa? Wait a sec...he did beat one of the weakest Haskell fields of all time, and in the Travers, defeated 3 colts that didn't have a Grade 1 between them.

Why not wait 3 years and get to this horse at $5,000?

[ratherrapid]

and how can you possibly say pleasant colony is a flop.

[Rokeby Forever]

As a sire of sires, Pleasant Colony has been a flop. Behrens is the latest dud stud on the list.

[geowarrior]

There is another son of Broad Brush standing at stud in Oregon - his name is Dr. Litin. He doesn't look like Broad Brush either, he looks like his dam Winning Colors.

[ef]

Giant's Causeway seems to have found a niche in Europe. He's a busted balloon here in the US (even with First Samurai). Can you think of a Giant's Causeway that's gotten better with age and racing? I can't. .

I completely disagree with you- I think the Giant's Causeways have proven themselves to get better with age. Giant's Causeway's first foals are FOUR, so he hasn't had that much opportunity for them to get better with age. From this limited opportunity, he actually has a lot of "improvers" who have had their best years ever at 4- Aragorn, Oonagh Maccool, My Typhoon, Naissance Royale, and Bastet. Several from that crop weren't given the opportunity to run at 4, but were much better horses at 3 than 2- Maids Causeway, Footstepsinthesand, Mona Lisa, and Oblique.

He has 6 new three year old stakes winners this year- Harriett Lane, Primary, Heaven's CAuse, Chetten County, Scholastic Giant, and Win McCool- obviously they were all better race horses at three than two. And he has many three year old stakes horses who are doubtless going to be heard from next year- Neko Bay, Petrovich, Jade Queen, Niagara Causeway...

All in all, Giant's Causeway has only TWO two year old stakes winners that didn't come back to win stakes at 3- the Italian listed winner Aischa, and the Oak Leaf stakes winner Diamond Omi, who died from pneumonia following the BC Juvenile Fillies.

[pokeyman]

and how can you possibly say pleasant colony is a flop.

Um...how can you NOT say he is a flop at siring sons who are world class??? Let's see 620 foals and only one stallion that is EVER on the leading Sire list (who BTW didn't have to earn his stripes the hard way because he has always been supported with a strong book of mares and has always resided at a top KY farm).

AP Indy DOES NOT improve his mares. Only the best stallions (less than 20% of all stallions) will actually improve his mares. Plus, Indy gets mares who have a CI that is 4X above average!!!!! I bet even Buddha would hit a few home runs with those numbers!!

Also, Ratherrapid-are you smokin' crack!!! Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer overrated and fakes. Holy cow!!!! They are in an elite class of stallions by every single statistical analysis a human being could ever do!!!! *all said jokingly and with a smile*

Broad Brush is a phenomenal sire....just not a sire of sires..yet.

Rokeby, you are SO right about Rahy, Cozzene, Dynaformer, Broad Brush siring a top class racehorses..maybe not a potential stallion but a top racehorse, nevertheless. BTW-Rahy is listed at 15.1hh which means he's probably 15hh flat!! I would kill for a Rahy filly..love him!

[FOS]

hi ASB...hello ratherrapid...hello and Happy Holidays to all...

Mr. P proved a very reliable source of sire blood...

bull's-eye

but many of his sons were sent to the corners of the country and over-seas once they werent producing...

That certainly does NOT diminish what a TRULY GREAT SIRE Mr Prospector was...just that he didn't bat a 1000 (in baseball terminology if you will).

interesting posts. i'm an old timer. been around a while. if u think storm cat is overrated, or AP Indy, or Slew (not), take a look back at the years I had endure ND, Danzig and MP as the top rated sires. those were the true fakes.

MP? Does MP stand for Mr Prospector? Are you including Mr Prospector on your list of "true fakes" (your words)? If so, I have to respectfully (but vehemently) disagree with you (we can talk Northern Dancer and his son Danzig, some other time). For now though...

...To my way of thinking, Mr Prospector's success and prowess as a racehorse sire...sire-of-sires...broodmare sire...broodmare sire-of-sires etc etc will forever (in the world of thoroughbred racing and breeding) be recognized as nothing short of an extraordinary (and maybe insurmountable) accomplishment.

For starters...I suggest, let's not lose sight of the fact that Mr Prospector began his career at stud in Florida, standing at his owner's (Butch Savin) farm for $7,500 live. Just a fraction of any of the stud fees that were tagged on any of the four other stallions you mention...champion A.P. Indy...champion Seattle Slew...champion Northern Dancer...undefeated Danzig (who at $20,000, was the lowest priced of the A.P., Slew, ND and Danzig foursome).

Furthermore...I am confident that Mr Prospector did NOT receive (at the outset of his career at stud) the quality of opportunity (at stud) that young stallions (that you referenced) champion Northern Dancer (standing at Windfields)...champion Seattle Slew (standing at Spendthrift)...undefeated Danzig (standing at Claiborne)...horse of the year & champion A.P. Indy (standing at Lane's End), each received.

Certainly Mr Prospector (until he was bumped to $25k his last year in Florida, and subsequently moved to Kentucky) stood for just a fraction of any stud fee attached to any of the stallions you referenced.

I again submit that...Mr Prospector consistently sired TOP runners on dirt...TOP runners on turf...TOP 2-year-olds...TOP 3-year-olds and up...TOP sprinters and classic-winners...TOP fillies...TOP colts; a VERY significant percentage of stakes winners, graded stakes-winners and G-1 winners (colts/fillies, turf/dirt, short and long etc etc)...champions upon champions...was a GREAT sire of sires...was/is a GREAT broodmare sire (still at the TOP of the list today)...and a GREAT broodmare sire of sires. Am I missing something?

Right from the outset, Mr Prospector defined himself as a racehorse sire to be reckoned with, and arguably many (if not most) knowledgeable and experienced horsemen/women took notice. Furthermore, Mr Prospector's early accomplishments (in relation to the quality of opportunity he was afforded...which some might suggest might be described as average [or below] at best) were arguably so astounding, that Peter Brandt (on behalf of himself, Phipps and Claiborne) offered $500,000 per share (in Mr Prospector)...an amount (per share) that finally sealed the deal for Mr Prospector's move to Claiborne.

To my way of thinking NO other sire has excelled in as many categories as Mr Prospector...including Northern Dancer (who [himself] proved to be relatively unimportant as a broodmare sire of sires, particularly in North America).

In the world of thoroughbreds...GREAT might be an overused word; but in the case of Mr Prospector, I submit there was NONE GREATER than him.

To each his own...but your inclusion of Mr Prospector (who you reference as MP) among your list of "true fakes" (your words)...is (from my perspective) simply unacceptable.

Happy Holidays...

Respectfully