How did you know that I sang with Gladys Knight?
Pete
Five Star Day
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
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Hi Skeenan,
The NICKS you mention are actually a part of Aggression, not the other way around. I should probably go into this a bit to answer your question.
The sixth postulate of Aggression (that I listed) is:
6– A horses’ source Aggression (sire and dam) is modified or more flexible according to the source of the blood bred to.
(Specifically this is the definition of a NICK).
In other words, a nick is an expansion of the potential generated by relative aggression in the sire and dam.
Imagine both sire and dam aggression as two tarps pulled tight on a trampoline. If they are very close together you get greater lift than if they are separated. Better balanced aggression allows more potential to move away from the norm.
If you examine most nicks, they are between lines that are usually fairly close in aggression. Alydar / Buckpasser, Mr. Prospector / Northern Dancer, etc. Changes in aggression alter the affinities between sire lines. Thus only a DIRECT affinity of sire to broodmare sire is classified as a nick. Seattle Slew had some success (mostly modest) with Mr. Prospector mares, the best being Event Of The Year. A.P. Indy has had spectacular success with Mr. Prospector mares siring Mineshaft, Tomisue’s Delight, Congrats, Tempera, etc.
Nicks fall under the category of AFFINITIES and there are 5 types of them in two distinct categories: Obvious and Masked.
Obvious Affinities
DIRECT This is the only affinity that is a true nick, where sire and dam sire have had success together. It s a 1st and 2nd generation, place specific, phenomenon. Mr. Prospector with Northern Dancer mares is an example of DIRECT AFFINITY, as is A.P. Indy with Mr. Prospector mares.
DEMANDED When specific blood is demonstrated to be necessary to continue line success. TEDDY being brought back to Raise A Native line stallions (through Mr. Prospector) is an example of DEMANDED AFFINITY.
INHERITED When specific blood affinities are passed onto the next generation. Halo sons DEMANDED Mahmoud and have affinity for his Almahmoud in the following generation. Another example of inherited affinity is the son of Mr. Prospector having a nick with grand daughter of Northern Dancer.
Masked Affinities
IMPLIED When a particular sire line appears to be interchangeable, or have similarly positive effect in the pedigree of a specific sire line such as Ribot and Princequillo (interchangeably) with Halo (one or the other appears to be a positive influence in Halo sons). The corollary is that there is an IMPLIED AFFINITY between Ribot and Princequillo that is evidenced in the case of Pleasant Colony with Stage Door Johnny.
OBLIQUE Are affinities that aren’t obvious, unproven or that are not evident from success in the past.
Some affinities are combinations such as my example of Pleasant Colony with Stage Door Johnny is an implied affinity, but it crosses generations so it’s really an INHERITED-IMPLIED affinity.
OBLIQUE affinity is a test tube, meaning that you don’t have enough precedence to project the effect. If you were breeding Pleasantly Perfect to a Meadowlake mare you would be attempting to leverage an OBLIQUE affinity based on the INHERITED-IMPLIED affinity displayed between Ribot and Princequillo evidenced by Pleasant Tap and Stage Door Johnny. (Hmm – that was a mouthful).
You mention that Mr. Prospector is one of the most prominent nicks your nicking report for Wild Bell? Nicking with? Since you won’t be breeding to Mr. Prospector your report is based on an OBLIQUE affinity. It’s not sire to broodmare sire, therefore not based on a nick. At best it would be an implied affinity. I believe that you have several considerations that you should look after and frankly a nicking report is just chin music especially in the case of Wild Bell who is so overloaded with a difficult blood in Hyperion.
First - what do you intend to do with the foal? If you’re breeding to sell then you need to select the most commercial stallion in your price range that you can that will give you (by your evaluation or your advisors) the best quality foal (physically) you can get. I wouldn’t worry all too much about how the mating looks on paper because the percentages deem that you’ll have about as good a chance of breeding a winner as if you based the mating on a more clever (paper) but less commercial breeding.
What I would advise is addressing a few of the compatibility issues that I believe your mare has. First, Wild Again hasn’t been a big success as a broodmare sire and I believe that a major part of the reason is that he doesn’t ‘package’ Hyperion for other stallions as Northern Dancer does.
The amount of specific blood in a mating, even when related to a reliable affinity, can result in overload (as I discussed with Hyperion). Packaging (as Northern Dancer does for Hyperion) makes that blood more readily available to lines but your Hyperion isn’t favorably packaged.
Overloading of blood usually results in a decrease in aggression. Most of the Mr. Prospector line sons have retained a good amount of aggression so I’d question assuming that there would be inherited affinity for Mr. Prospector in the case of Wild Bell. Of the Mr. Prospector sons, Jade Hunter and Gulch have had some success with mares that have Hyperion as well as more European pedigrees.
If you notice in Wild’s Best Turn (Wild Bell’s dam) there is a very high percentage of both Nearco and Hyperion (an established nick), with slightly more Nearco. There is more Hyperion in Wild Bell than Nearco.
In a case like Wild Bell there are some techniques that you might chose to try (in a paper mating) such as tying the top and bottom lines (increases aggression), balancing the Nearco / Hyperion ratio (or reducing the Hyperion pct) and perhaps out crossing to a stallion with some European pedigree (generally less aggressive). Find a stallion who meets your economic needs (commercial or reliable sire of runners if you intend to race the foal) and responsibly address the issues as you’re able.
If you tell me your intention with the foal, as well as your budget and location, I’ll try to make some recommendations to fit your needs.
Regards,
Pete
Portion of this post are copyrighted material and can’t be copied or reproduced without the expressed written consent of the author. © 2004
The NICKS you mention are actually a part of Aggression, not the other way around. I should probably go into this a bit to answer your question.
The sixth postulate of Aggression (that I listed) is:
6– A horses’ source Aggression (sire and dam) is modified or more flexible according to the source of the blood bred to.
(Specifically this is the definition of a NICK).
In other words, a nick is an expansion of the potential generated by relative aggression in the sire and dam.
Imagine both sire and dam aggression as two tarps pulled tight on a trampoline. If they are very close together you get greater lift than if they are separated. Better balanced aggression allows more potential to move away from the norm.
If you examine most nicks, they are between lines that are usually fairly close in aggression. Alydar / Buckpasser, Mr. Prospector / Northern Dancer, etc. Changes in aggression alter the affinities between sire lines. Thus only a DIRECT affinity of sire to broodmare sire is classified as a nick. Seattle Slew had some success (mostly modest) with Mr. Prospector mares, the best being Event Of The Year. A.P. Indy has had spectacular success with Mr. Prospector mares siring Mineshaft, Tomisue’s Delight, Congrats, Tempera, etc.
Nicks fall under the category of AFFINITIES and there are 5 types of them in two distinct categories: Obvious and Masked.
Obvious Affinities
DIRECT This is the only affinity that is a true nick, where sire and dam sire have had success together. It s a 1st and 2nd generation, place specific, phenomenon. Mr. Prospector with Northern Dancer mares is an example of DIRECT AFFINITY, as is A.P. Indy with Mr. Prospector mares.
DEMANDED When specific blood is demonstrated to be necessary to continue line success. TEDDY being brought back to Raise A Native line stallions (through Mr. Prospector) is an example of DEMANDED AFFINITY.
INHERITED When specific blood affinities are passed onto the next generation. Halo sons DEMANDED Mahmoud and have affinity for his Almahmoud in the following generation. Another example of inherited affinity is the son of Mr. Prospector having a nick with grand daughter of Northern Dancer.
Masked Affinities
IMPLIED When a particular sire line appears to be interchangeable, or have similarly positive effect in the pedigree of a specific sire line such as Ribot and Princequillo (interchangeably) with Halo (one or the other appears to be a positive influence in Halo sons). The corollary is that there is an IMPLIED AFFINITY between Ribot and Princequillo that is evidenced in the case of Pleasant Colony with Stage Door Johnny.
OBLIQUE Are affinities that aren’t obvious, unproven or that are not evident from success in the past.
Some affinities are combinations such as my example of Pleasant Colony with Stage Door Johnny is an implied affinity, but it crosses generations so it’s really an INHERITED-IMPLIED affinity.
OBLIQUE affinity is a test tube, meaning that you don’t have enough precedence to project the effect. If you were breeding Pleasantly Perfect to a Meadowlake mare you would be attempting to leverage an OBLIQUE affinity based on the INHERITED-IMPLIED affinity displayed between Ribot and Princequillo evidenced by Pleasant Tap and Stage Door Johnny. (Hmm – that was a mouthful).
You mention that Mr. Prospector is one of the most prominent nicks your nicking report for Wild Bell? Nicking with? Since you won’t be breeding to Mr. Prospector your report is based on an OBLIQUE affinity. It’s not sire to broodmare sire, therefore not based on a nick. At best it would be an implied affinity. I believe that you have several considerations that you should look after and frankly a nicking report is just chin music especially in the case of Wild Bell who is so overloaded with a difficult blood in Hyperion.
First - what do you intend to do with the foal? If you’re breeding to sell then you need to select the most commercial stallion in your price range that you can that will give you (by your evaluation or your advisors) the best quality foal (physically) you can get. I wouldn’t worry all too much about how the mating looks on paper because the percentages deem that you’ll have about as good a chance of breeding a winner as if you based the mating on a more clever (paper) but less commercial breeding.
What I would advise is addressing a few of the compatibility issues that I believe your mare has. First, Wild Again hasn’t been a big success as a broodmare sire and I believe that a major part of the reason is that he doesn’t ‘package’ Hyperion for other stallions as Northern Dancer does.
The amount of specific blood in a mating, even when related to a reliable affinity, can result in overload (as I discussed with Hyperion). Packaging (as Northern Dancer does for Hyperion) makes that blood more readily available to lines but your Hyperion isn’t favorably packaged.
Overloading of blood usually results in a decrease in aggression. Most of the Mr. Prospector line sons have retained a good amount of aggression so I’d question assuming that there would be inherited affinity for Mr. Prospector in the case of Wild Bell. Of the Mr. Prospector sons, Jade Hunter and Gulch have had some success with mares that have Hyperion as well as more European pedigrees.
If you notice in Wild’s Best Turn (Wild Bell’s dam) there is a very high percentage of both Nearco and Hyperion (an established nick), with slightly more Nearco. There is more Hyperion in Wild Bell than Nearco.
In a case like Wild Bell there are some techniques that you might chose to try (in a paper mating) such as tying the top and bottom lines (increases aggression), balancing the Nearco / Hyperion ratio (or reducing the Hyperion pct) and perhaps out crossing to a stallion with some European pedigree (generally less aggressive). Find a stallion who meets your economic needs (commercial or reliable sire of runners if you intend to race the foal) and responsibly address the issues as you’re able.
If you tell me your intention with the foal, as well as your budget and location, I’ll try to make some recommendations to fit your needs.
Regards,
Pete
Portion of this post are copyrighted material and can’t be copied or reproduced without the expressed written consent of the author. © 2004
Pete,
Thanks for such a detailed reply. I spend some couch time yesterday tracing back all of the Hyperion, Teddy & Phalaris, and as you've mentioned, she has a lot of Hyperion. Of course, for me, it's making sense out of it, which you've helped explain in your reply-- knowing whether to dilute the Hyperion or how to work with it.
I had looked up her Personal Flag broodmare sire nicking report, which showed a lot of Mr. Prospector crosses. I should have phrased it: a lot of Mr. Prospector sons, not Mr. Prospector. Fappiano seems to be another popular cross, as well as Storm Cat and Forty Niner (sons of). I realize it's general, as you're not looking at the bottom half of each mare's pedigree (and taking the bottom half of each stallion's son into consideration as well)--as you've mentioned, it isn't "direct" in each case. I just wanted to get a sense of what seemed to work to try to understand why-- hopefully see a pattern. I mainly looked at the blackwinning-producing crosses to try to analyze on paper what they might have had in common (which, coincidentally, all or most as I remember seemed to have Nasrullah as a common thread), to see if it would give me some insight. Of course, compared to you and others on the forum, I feel like I'm stumbling around in the dark with a pen light!
I do intend on getting a more indepth professional opinion of Bell and stallion selections, and not going on my own judgement (that would be scary!)... I'm mainly trying to learn and expand my own knowledge, as I'm very interested in the pedigree end of things!
I wanted to get a stallion or two in each category to ponder, but my priority is pedigree/best cross first, over being commercial (i.e., only to make money on the foal). Of course, if there's a stallion that fits both, great. Most likely, we'll be selling a yearling, but I'm thinking about the possibility of leasing, which would be my ideal #1 choice-- find someone up this way who might be interested in a 90/10 lease. We're in NH, btw... not the breeding capital, I know!
Budget? I'd like to look at $5,000 and under, if that seems the right fit for her... she was a rescue effort, so I don't have any sense of her market value or potential, as far as stallion selection goes...
There's an older post of mine (Wild Bell) in the "mating" section, that llbean replied to... he suggested Patton, whose sire is Lord at War. I don't know if that falls into a favorable "European" line as you've mentioned, but I *really* like the reasoning behind the match a lot. I also found the stallion Mighty, who is a Lord at War stallion, but instead of Patton's dam's Seattle Slew lines, his dam is out of a Mr. Prospector mare. He's one stallion I wanted to ask about when I have my analysis done. (don't know if it's "better" or not). The other avenue I've been looking into (and am also going to ask about) is Unbridled lines-- someone mentioned a Personal Ensign/Unbridled horse currently racing and doing fairly well. On Bell's report, I haven't seen any sons of Unbridled, so I didn't know if that could be a good possibility (OOPS!! My mistake... A.P. Jet is on her report). It was llbean's Lord at War/Personal Ensign idea (Patton) that made me think about it...
I appreciate your responses & insight very much-- thank you!!
Thanks for such a detailed reply. I spend some couch time yesterday tracing back all of the Hyperion, Teddy & Phalaris, and as you've mentioned, she has a lot of Hyperion. Of course, for me, it's making sense out of it, which you've helped explain in your reply-- knowing whether to dilute the Hyperion or how to work with it.
You mention that Mr. Prospector is one of the most prominent nicks your nicking report for Wild Bell? Nicking with? Since you won’t be breeding to Mr. Prospector your report is based on an OBLIQUE affinity. It’s not sire to broodmare sire, therefore not based on a nick. At best it would be an implied affinity. I believe that you have several considerations that you should look after and frankly a nicking report is just chin music especially in the case of Wild Bell who is so overloaded with a difficult blood in Hyperion.
I had looked up her Personal Flag broodmare sire nicking report, which showed a lot of Mr. Prospector crosses. I should have phrased it: a lot of Mr. Prospector sons, not Mr. Prospector. Fappiano seems to be another popular cross, as well as Storm Cat and Forty Niner (sons of). I realize it's general, as you're not looking at the bottom half of each mare's pedigree (and taking the bottom half of each stallion's son into consideration as well)--as you've mentioned, it isn't "direct" in each case. I just wanted to get a sense of what seemed to work to try to understand why-- hopefully see a pattern. I mainly looked at the blackwinning-producing crosses to try to analyze on paper what they might have had in common (which, coincidentally, all or most as I remember seemed to have Nasrullah as a common thread), to see if it would give me some insight. Of course, compared to you and others on the forum, I feel like I'm stumbling around in the dark with a pen light!
I do intend on getting a more indepth professional opinion of Bell and stallion selections, and not going on my own judgement (that would be scary!)... I'm mainly trying to learn and expand my own knowledge, as I'm very interested in the pedigree end of things!
First - what do you intend to do with the foal? If you’re breeding to sell then you need to select the most commercial stallion in your price range that you can that will give you (by your evaluation or your advisors) the best quality foal (physically) you can get. I wouldn’t worry all too much about how the mating looks on paper because the percentages deem that you’ll have about as good a chance of breeding a winner as if you based the mating on a more clever (paper) but less commercial breeding.
I wanted to get a stallion or two in each category to ponder, but my priority is pedigree/best cross first, over being commercial (i.e., only to make money on the foal). Of course, if there's a stallion that fits both, great. Most likely, we'll be selling a yearling, but I'm thinking about the possibility of leasing, which would be my ideal #1 choice-- find someone up this way who might be interested in a 90/10 lease. We're in NH, btw... not the breeding capital, I know!
Budget? I'd like to look at $5,000 and under, if that seems the right fit for her... she was a rescue effort, so I don't have any sense of her market value or potential, as far as stallion selection goes...
There's an older post of mine (Wild Bell) in the "mating" section, that llbean replied to... he suggested Patton, whose sire is Lord at War. I don't know if that falls into a favorable "European" line as you've mentioned, but I *really* like the reasoning behind the match a lot. I also found the stallion Mighty, who is a Lord at War stallion, but instead of Patton's dam's Seattle Slew lines, his dam is out of a Mr. Prospector mare. He's one stallion I wanted to ask about when I have my analysis done. (don't know if it's "better" or not). The other avenue I've been looking into (and am also going to ask about) is Unbridled lines-- someone mentioned a Personal Ensign/Unbridled horse currently racing and doing fairly well. On Bell's report, I haven't seen any sons of Unbridled, so I didn't know if that could be a good possibility (OOPS!! My mistake... A.P. Jet is on her report). It was llbean's Lord at War/Personal Ensign idea (Patton) that made me think about it...
I appreciate your responses & insight very much-- thank you!!
Last edited by skeenan on Tue May 31, 2005 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Northlight
- Suckling
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- Location: Madison, GA
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Aggression and Miss Muscles
Pete
I would love to know more about Agression and good breeding decisions for Miss Muscles.
We feel that if we are lucky, we may get 4-5 more babies out of her. She has had some successes, and we would like to get a good runner or two in the future.
I can see that she has 9 crosses of Teddy, in a sex-balanced way.
Is there a reference site somewhere that will chart Aggression by sire? I think I understand the theory, but not the application.
Thanks in advance.
I would love to know more about Agression and good breeding decisions for Miss Muscles.
We feel that if we are lucky, we may get 4-5 more babies out of her. She has had some successes, and we would like to get a good runner or two in the future.
I can see that she has 9 crosses of Teddy, in a sex-balanced way.
Is there a reference site somewhere that will chart Aggression by sire? I think I understand the theory, but not the application.
Thanks in advance.
OK, I do have another question, for anyone who might like to answer it...
When I traced Bell's pedigree back 7 gens, she does have a lot of Hyperion inbreeding (7S x 5S x 6d x 5D x 7D x 7d). For Phalaris, she shows (7S x 7D), yet Phalaris shows up in many of her ancestors. I took her 5 gen pedigree & listed next to each name in the far right column- Hyperion, Teddy & Phalaris- out of 32 spots, 15 names trace back to Phalaris, 9 trace back to Teddy, and 7 trace to Hyperion, and she has no inbreeding of Teddy.
What I'm having a hard time with is-- shouldn't the Phalaris that shows up in the ancestral lines help balance out the Hyperion concentration, or does it only affect things if it shows up as inbreeding? Is it very location-specific?
If I look at things on paper, the names that I've listed along the right-hand column (Phalaris, Teddy & Hyperion) of her 5 gen look pretty balanced in frequency top to bottom (both sire & dam families). So why is it so unbalanced (ie, too much Hyperion)? Shouldn't the Phalaris & Teddy "neutralize" the Hyperion some?
So I'm not sure what I'm not understanding...?
When I traced Bell's pedigree back 7 gens, she does have a lot of Hyperion inbreeding (7S x 5S x 6d x 5D x 7D x 7d). For Phalaris, she shows (7S x 7D), yet Phalaris shows up in many of her ancestors. I took her 5 gen pedigree & listed next to each name in the far right column- Hyperion, Teddy & Phalaris- out of 32 spots, 15 names trace back to Phalaris, 9 trace back to Teddy, and 7 trace to Hyperion, and she has no inbreeding of Teddy.
What I'm having a hard time with is-- shouldn't the Phalaris that shows up in the ancestral lines help balance out the Hyperion concentration, or does it only affect things if it shows up as inbreeding? Is it very location-specific?
If I look at things on paper, the names that I've listed along the right-hand column (Phalaris, Teddy & Hyperion) of her 5 gen look pretty balanced in frequency top to bottom (both sire & dam families). So why is it so unbalanced (ie, too much Hyperion)? Shouldn't the Phalaris & Teddy "neutralize" the Hyperion some?
So I'm not sure what I'm not understanding...?