Which young stallions have genuine MARKET APPEAL ?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
FOS wrote:hi Mike
When you consider the opportunities afforded many of the Storm Cat sons (at stud)...especially at Ashford/Coolmore...don't you get a sense sometimes that maybe too many are actually disappointing (at least to some extent)?
Hi FOS,
I feel like I've at least tried to have this conversation with you on multiple occassions. You are so frequently right-on in your observations, which is why I am just a little confused about your dismissal of the Storm Cat stallions.
It seems to me that a good majority HAVE been successful, with varying degrees of farm support:
Harlan
Tabasco Cat (shipped off way too early)
Forestry
Forest Wildcat
Storm Boot
Tale of the Cat
Hennessy
others who have done a good job but are really too young to decide on:
Bernstein
Giant's Causeway (though he has produced the two best performers of any US freshman sire, in my opinion, in Sharmardal and Maids Causeway)
Stormy Atlantic
Tactical Cat
Stormin Fever
Lion Hearted
Tiger Ridge
Ones who have done pretty well regionally:
Tomorrows Cat
Catienus
Crown Ambassador
Magic Cat
Storm and a Half
ones that are decent, with minimal farm support:
Sir Cat
Sea of Secrets
I can think of only three really disappointing ones, and they are just WAY TOO YOUNG (in my opinion!) to condemn- Exploit (I still have faith, lol), High Yield, and Cat Thief.
I think the High Yields may eventually find their way to the turf. I do not agree that he was given tremendous support by Ashford. He did get a lot of mares, but certainly not Ashford's best! His CI is around 1.80 or so.
Cat Thief has been rather scary so far (further evidence by the gods that they should have kept Tabasco Cat?). He does have one rather nice looking winner- the filly Great Intentions, who was quite impressive in her debut at Aqueduct. Hopefully, they will be late developers. Otherwise, Cat Thief has no excuses, other than possibly inheriting their father's wackiness. Talented horse, but he certainly didn't always apply himself.
One horse whom I still think could surprise some people is Aljabr. From 24 foals, he has had some nice winners in Europe and a nice debut winner last week at Hollywood (6 total winners). He was a very talented horse.
Overall, FOS, I just do not understand how you can dismiss the real successes of many of his sons.
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Michael D.
- Yearling
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:44 pm
- Location: jupiter, fla
high yield looks very interesting to me. in terms of pure speed, forty niner could be the most underrated sire in the world. going to japan, and matching with a lot of turf mares didn't work all that well, but his mare, leap lively, the dam of high yield, looks to have passed on the classic forty niner speed (with amazing distance influences back there). looks like they got a nice balance of speed and stamina when they went to storm cat........ does anybody have any specific conformation info on high yield? i only remember the horse from watching him race on the track. his stud fee looks a bit low, are there some problems there?
I'll defer to FOS for a great deal of this conversation... however... I do have a thought or two about a couple of those mentioned.
I really liked High Yield, however many of his foals that I have seen have great bodies, but poor (or weak or light-boned) underpinning. One thing is always true, poor legs with great power, usually produces no performance (cannot keep them in training long enough to get to the track).
Cat Thief may take a little longer than people expected. I never thought he would be a standout 2 yr. old sire. Of course, he isn't one of my favorite Storm Cat son's anyway. I look at him in very much the same light as Editor's Note. MR. Ed had tons of talent, but only used it when it suited him and when things went his way, otherwise he seemed to be much happier in frustrating everyone involved. Cat Thief either had a ton of talent and only picked a couple spots to show it... or, had limited talent and ran far beyond his ability a couple times. Either way, what you get from his foals can range from head cases to those with limited ability. No thanks. Interestingly, at the same farm, for less money, one can get to Tactical Cat and Jump Start. Both of these left no doubt that they had both talent and the desire to use it... of course, both were broken very early. Tactical Cat has been successful and is only 2 turns and 1 big horse from being considered one of his sire's best. Jump Start has many of the ingredients to become an absolute standout and make those breeding to the much, much, higher priced Slew-line stallions look silly.
I am not a fan of Hennessy. I don't think, in 10 years, his significance will hold up to scrutiny. Of course, I can always be wrong.
Of those listed, I really like Tactical Cat. I also have become a believer, although begrudgingly, in Tale of the Cat... you cannot argue that his foals have shown talent and speed on both surfaces. I too think Giant's Causeway will be okay... partially because of his ability to pass along talent, but even more so in that he seems to be passing some of his mother's heart and desire. Harlan is dead, but he left his son Menifee, who has been quitely successful... gotta' respect the job Stone Farm has done with him, and I believe their management will provide for long-term success. Forestry is Forestry... I loved him from the start and don't imagine I will change my mind ever... in fact, I keep trying to talk LSB out of her Forestry filly...
I just found out one of mare's half-sister had a daughter by Stormin Fever win a stakes at Churchill, so one would think I would be "high" on Stormin Fever.... well, I think him okay... but, in limited uses and with limited appeal.
When it comes to my thoughts on Storm Cat's sons... I, again begrudgingly, am starting to side with FOS thoughts on the "atypical" sons. Forestry, Tactical Cat, and Menifee fit this "atypical" mold, and some would argue that Giant's Causeway does also. While I have heard some say that they believe Tale of the Cat is getting his success through his broodmare sire.
Also, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that I think Pure Prize will fit into this "atypical" bunch and prove to be at least moderately successful. As for Tabasco Cat... I always liked him and always thought he might prove to be a good one. I just wondered about his foal's having solid enough minds to be useful. Personally, I feel if he had stayed here, he would have had a career which. in may ways. would be reflective of a chestnut version of Tale of the Cat.
Many of those listed had success which was, in large part, derived from a few really nice mares and / or, quite a bit of support from their connections in their first couple seasons. This business is definitely a "what have you done for me lately" business... and those who continue to impress quickly rise to the top.
I really liked High Yield, however many of his foals that I have seen have great bodies, but poor (or weak or light-boned) underpinning. One thing is always true, poor legs with great power, usually produces no performance (cannot keep them in training long enough to get to the track).
Cat Thief may take a little longer than people expected. I never thought he would be a standout 2 yr. old sire. Of course, he isn't one of my favorite Storm Cat son's anyway. I look at him in very much the same light as Editor's Note. MR. Ed had tons of talent, but only used it when it suited him and when things went his way, otherwise he seemed to be much happier in frustrating everyone involved. Cat Thief either had a ton of talent and only picked a couple spots to show it... or, had limited talent and ran far beyond his ability a couple times. Either way, what you get from his foals can range from head cases to those with limited ability. No thanks. Interestingly, at the same farm, for less money, one can get to Tactical Cat and Jump Start. Both of these left no doubt that they had both talent and the desire to use it... of course, both were broken very early. Tactical Cat has been successful and is only 2 turns and 1 big horse from being considered one of his sire's best. Jump Start has many of the ingredients to become an absolute standout and make those breeding to the much, much, higher priced Slew-line stallions look silly.
I am not a fan of Hennessy. I don't think, in 10 years, his significance will hold up to scrutiny. Of course, I can always be wrong.
Of those listed, I really like Tactical Cat. I also have become a believer, although begrudgingly, in Tale of the Cat... you cannot argue that his foals have shown talent and speed on both surfaces. I too think Giant's Causeway will be okay... partially because of his ability to pass along talent, but even more so in that he seems to be passing some of his mother's heart and desire. Harlan is dead, but he left his son Menifee, who has been quitely successful... gotta' respect the job Stone Farm has done with him, and I believe their management will provide for long-term success. Forestry is Forestry... I loved him from the start and don't imagine I will change my mind ever... in fact, I keep trying to talk LSB out of her Forestry filly...
I just found out one of mare's half-sister had a daughter by Stormin Fever win a stakes at Churchill, so one would think I would be "high" on Stormin Fever.... well, I think him okay... but, in limited uses and with limited appeal.
When it comes to my thoughts on Storm Cat's sons... I, again begrudgingly, am starting to side with FOS thoughts on the "atypical" sons. Forestry, Tactical Cat, and Menifee fit this "atypical" mold, and some would argue that Giant's Causeway does also. While I have heard some say that they believe Tale of the Cat is getting his success through his broodmare sire.
Also, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that I think Pure Prize will fit into this "atypical" bunch and prove to be at least moderately successful. As for Tabasco Cat... I always liked him and always thought he might prove to be a good one. I just wondered about his foal's having solid enough minds to be useful. Personally, I feel if he had stayed here, he would have had a career which. in may ways. would be reflective of a chestnut version of Tale of the Cat.
Many of those listed had success which was, in large part, derived from a few really nice mares and / or, quite a bit of support from their connections in their first couple seasons. This business is definitely a "what have you done for me lately" business... and those who continue to impress quickly rise to the top.
KAL,
Thanks for the very interesting reply. I guess I just don't understand this "atypical" Storm Cat thing. If so many of the ones you list are atypical, then just who is a typical Storm Cat? I have always thought that that very attribute (diversity) is what makes Storm Cat an undeniably great sire- that he sires such a tremendous array of horses, usually depending on what type of mare their dams are. I mean, how many leading sires can claim such diversity as siring blazing fast horses like Raging Fever, Forestry, Forest Wildcat, and the fragile Tribal Rule, and distance horses like Vision and Verse, Cat Thief, Giant's Causeway, November Snow, and Tabasco Cat? How many sires can boast of outstanding turf horses like Aljabr, Nebraska Tornado, Good Reward, etc, and such great dirt horses like Sharp Cat, Storm Flag Flying, and Sweet Catomine? Some will argue that this is "letting the mares's influence show through." I just wish, then, that every stallion bred to great mares would show equal deference and get the hell out of the way!
In sum, KAL, I would love to hear more of what you mean by "typical" Storm Cats, because I'm just not sure I know what they are.
As for Hennessy, I agree with you in certain ways- I've always thought that he's a little, dumpy, sway backed, unimpressive horse. However, he had quite a bit of grit on the racetrack, and he has certainly sired some nice, nice horses in J-burg, Madcap Escapade, Grand Armee, and Harmony Lodge.
What do you think about Forest Wildcat? Or Storm Boot? Both have very nice percentages of runners (83% and 85%), winners (60% and 66%), and stakes winners (8% and 9%).
As for Tabasco Cat, he was, in my ever-so-humble opinion, undeniably successful: 73% runners, 57% winners, 7% Stakes winners, including G1SWs Habibti, Snow Ridge, Island Sand, and the very nice Cat's At Home, Freefourinternet, Spice Island, and Perfect Cat. I am still a little peeved they shipped him off, obviously.
One more thing (why not make this longer
)- I feel like people tend to dismiss success if they feel it is due to farm/mare support. I just want to say that the Successful Appeals are few and far between. If we want to condemn good performance because the stallions were well supported from the start, I suggest we start with A.P. Indy (3.34 AEI, 4.41 CI), and then continue on to Pulpit (2.31 AEI, 3.41 CI). And, heck, let's throw in Kingmambo (2.78, 3.26) and Seeking the Gold (2.74, 3.61), just for kicks.
thanks for your comments,
EF
Thanks for the very interesting reply. I guess I just don't understand this "atypical" Storm Cat thing. If so many of the ones you list are atypical, then just who is a typical Storm Cat? I have always thought that that very attribute (diversity) is what makes Storm Cat an undeniably great sire- that he sires such a tremendous array of horses, usually depending on what type of mare their dams are. I mean, how many leading sires can claim such diversity as siring blazing fast horses like Raging Fever, Forestry, Forest Wildcat, and the fragile Tribal Rule, and distance horses like Vision and Verse, Cat Thief, Giant's Causeway, November Snow, and Tabasco Cat? How many sires can boast of outstanding turf horses like Aljabr, Nebraska Tornado, Good Reward, etc, and such great dirt horses like Sharp Cat, Storm Flag Flying, and Sweet Catomine? Some will argue that this is "letting the mares's influence show through." I just wish, then, that every stallion bred to great mares would show equal deference and get the hell out of the way!
In sum, KAL, I would love to hear more of what you mean by "typical" Storm Cats, because I'm just not sure I know what they are.
As for Hennessy, I agree with you in certain ways- I've always thought that he's a little, dumpy, sway backed, unimpressive horse. However, he had quite a bit of grit on the racetrack, and he has certainly sired some nice, nice horses in J-burg, Madcap Escapade, Grand Armee, and Harmony Lodge.
What do you think about Forest Wildcat? Or Storm Boot? Both have very nice percentages of runners (83% and 85%), winners (60% and 66%), and stakes winners (8% and 9%).
As for Tabasco Cat, he was, in my ever-so-humble opinion, undeniably successful: 73% runners, 57% winners, 7% Stakes winners, including G1SWs Habibti, Snow Ridge, Island Sand, and the very nice Cat's At Home, Freefourinternet, Spice Island, and Perfect Cat. I am still a little peeved they shipped him off, obviously.
One more thing (why not make this longer
)- I feel like people tend to dismiss success if they feel it is due to farm/mare support. I just want to say that the Successful Appeals are few and far between. If we want to condemn good performance because the stallions were well supported from the start, I suggest we start with A.P. Indy (3.34 AEI, 4.41 CI), and then continue on to Pulpit (2.31 AEI, 3.41 CI). And, heck, let's throw in Kingmambo (2.78, 3.26) and Seeking the Gold (2.74, 3.61), just for kicks.
thanks for your comments,
EF
EF,
When I say "atypical" I am referring to their conformation or general build. Perhaps this can be furthered into running style... but not by me.
I listed 4 Storm Cat's that I consider "atypical" with another which I think others might consider "atypical".
In my case it is easy... look at Tactical Cat, Forestry, and Menifee. In no way (at least to me) do they look like Storm Cat or what one would expect a Storm Cat to look like. Pure Prize is my fourth, and he may be somewhat arguable. All four of these look decidedly more like one would expect from their female line (broodmare sire). I have heard, but haven't seen in person for myself, that Giant's Causeway resembles Rahy more than Storm Cat... thus I mentioned him.
On the other hand, look at Exploit, Storm Boot, High Yield, and the entire "Storm" section of the stallion directory, etc. and you will probably see some destinct physical similarities. In fact, go to the Bloodhorse sire list section and read through the "Special" on yearling conformation... there are some rather interesting statements made about "typical" and "non-typical" Storm Cats.
FOS, where are you? These are "your" ideas...
When I say "atypical" I am referring to their conformation or general build. Perhaps this can be furthered into running style... but not by me.
I listed 4 Storm Cat's that I consider "atypical" with another which I think others might consider "atypical".
In my case it is easy... look at Tactical Cat, Forestry, and Menifee. In no way (at least to me) do they look like Storm Cat or what one would expect a Storm Cat to look like. Pure Prize is my fourth, and he may be somewhat arguable. All four of these look decidedly more like one would expect from their female line (broodmare sire). I have heard, but haven't seen in person for myself, that Giant's Causeway resembles Rahy more than Storm Cat... thus I mentioned him.
On the other hand, look at Exploit, Storm Boot, High Yield, and the entire "Storm" section of the stallion directory, etc. and you will probably see some destinct physical similarities. In fact, go to the Bloodhorse sire list section and read through the "Special" on yearling conformation... there are some rather interesting statements made about "typical" and "non-typical" Storm Cats.
FOS, where are you? These are "your" ideas...
hi ef
Some of the stallions you mention are nice horses...but I ask you...with the overwhelming abundance of Storm Cat sons at stud (and it seems like every one of his sons gets a chance)...please name one that's a genuine super-star sire. I suggest he has none thus far...and you might agree he's had a LOT of chances.
Is the much-talked-about (and top-class race horse) Giant's Causeway even a standout sire? And how does he (and so many other Storm Cat sons) really fare (in the scheme of things as sires) when you consider...
1/ stud fee
2/ size of foal crops
3/ quality of mares bred
4/ legitimate "numbers" (not just great advertising which may skew one's perception of "real" success)...etc etc etc
Consider this...with all his incredible opportunity...hype etc etc...Giant's Causeway:
1/ seems to be struggling as a sire of race horses in North American
2/ has (WOW) 137 Foals In His First Crop (per thoroughbredtimes.com thru 12/3/2004) but has a mere 4 stakes winners (and all across the pond)
3/ stands for $135,000
4/ has been bred to many of the best mares that the world has to offer.
I ask you...who is better value?
Elusive Quality (Gone West) $100,000 (for 2005) or Giant's Causeway (Storm Cat) $135,000 (for 2005)
El Prado (Sadler's Wells) $100,000 or Giant's Causeway (Storm Cat) $135,000
And consider this...I believe most breeders might agree that 5 Yes It's Trues (or maybe just 2 or 3 Yes It's Trues...at $25k advertised fee) is better value than 1 Giant's Causeway (at $135k advertised fee)...and you'd have plenty of change left in your check book.
I submit GC could be potentially good value (right now) at $75k. But is it unfair to suggest that as a sire of race horses in North America Giant's Causeway is having serious difficulties. That raises serious questions but that concern may be offset to some extent by his reasonably good (whether perceived or real) record across the pond.
And while considering it all...I recommend you don't lose sight of the fact he has only 4 stakes winners (although one is a G1) from 137 foals. hmmm
You want good value...what about:
Gone West (Mr. Prospector) $150,000
Elusive Quality (Gone West) $100,000
El Prado (Sadler's Wells) $100,000
Dynaformer (Roberto) $75,000
Distorted Humor (Forty Niner) $60,000
Yes It's True (Is It True) $25,000
Successful Appeal (Valid Appeal) $25,000
...and what about Forestry (also by Storm Cat) at $75,000...is he good value...he doesn't have a G1 winner...hasn't had a classic contender or even a top two-turn dirt horse...and on potential championship days (so far anyway) they're nowhere to be found.
I suggest some more good value is:
Cherokee Run (Runaway Groom) $40,000
Silver Deputy (Deputy Minister) $40,000
Carson City (Mr Prospector) $35,000
...and what about Tale of the Cat...would you sign on the dotted line for $65,000 ?
Some more good value (at the lower end) might be:
Northern Afleet (Afleet) $12,500
Grindstone (Unbridled) $10,000
Old Topper (Gilded Time) $5,000
and there are many more to choose from (at all stud fee levels) including stallions with first crops yet to race (or first crops yet to foal).
ef you wrote "...I do not agree that he (High Yield) was given tremendous support by Ashford. He did get a lot of mares, but certainly not Ashford's best! His CI is around 1.80 or so." ef I suggest that a stallion that has it in him WILL "make it" at stud...and mares with a 1.80 CI will assist in such a stallion's quest for success...not deter it.
I suggest High Yield had a very good opportunity and thus far has done NOTHING to write home about. To blame his lack of success on the quality of his book is NOT reasonable (in my opinion).
Furthermore, I expect that if a stallion is cut out to "make it" he'll move his mares up. Any decent stallion can take an abundance of those kind (1.80 CI) of mares and make his mark.
I'll go one step further and suggest that based on the opportunity availed High Yield (by Ashford and outside support)...and the expectations and (arguably) miserable early results...there probably have been discussions already regarding the future of High Yield. If he doesn't jump up with a big-time front-page horse in 2005 (or possibly prior to the upcoming breeding season...especially if he's not booking and a reasonable offer is made)...I'd be surprised if he wouldn't be destined for a new home. Any suggestions where that might be?
As you may sense...I suggest that it is fair to say that many thoroughbred breeders (and aficionados) believe that the Storm Cats (in general) are...
...overpriced underachievers...and very rarely good value.
Best to you.
'til later
Respectfully
Some of the stallions you mention are nice horses...but I ask you...with the overwhelming abundance of Storm Cat sons at stud (and it seems like every one of his sons gets a chance)...please name one that's a genuine super-star sire. I suggest he has none thus far...and you might agree he's had a LOT of chances.
Is the much-talked-about (and top-class race horse) Giant's Causeway even a standout sire? And how does he (and so many other Storm Cat sons) really fare (in the scheme of things as sires) when you consider...
1/ stud fee
2/ size of foal crops
3/ quality of mares bred
4/ legitimate "numbers" (not just great advertising which may skew one's perception of "real" success)...etc etc etc
Consider this...with all his incredible opportunity...hype etc etc...Giant's Causeway:
1/ seems to be struggling as a sire of race horses in North American
2/ has (WOW) 137 Foals In His First Crop (per thoroughbredtimes.com thru 12/3/2004) but has a mere 4 stakes winners (and all across the pond)
3/ stands for $135,000
4/ has been bred to many of the best mares that the world has to offer.
I ask you...who is better value?
Elusive Quality (Gone West) $100,000 (for 2005) or Giant's Causeway (Storm Cat) $135,000 (for 2005)
El Prado (Sadler's Wells) $100,000 or Giant's Causeway (Storm Cat) $135,000
And consider this...I believe most breeders might agree that 5 Yes It's Trues (or maybe just 2 or 3 Yes It's Trues...at $25k advertised fee) is better value than 1 Giant's Causeway (at $135k advertised fee)...and you'd have plenty of change left in your check book.
I submit GC could be potentially good value (right now) at $75k. But is it unfair to suggest that as a sire of race horses in North America Giant's Causeway is having serious difficulties. That raises serious questions but that concern may be offset to some extent by his reasonably good (whether perceived or real) record across the pond.
And while considering it all...I recommend you don't lose sight of the fact he has only 4 stakes winners (although one is a G1) from 137 foals. hmmm
You want good value...what about:
Gone West (Mr. Prospector) $150,000
Elusive Quality (Gone West) $100,000
El Prado (Sadler's Wells) $100,000
Dynaformer (Roberto) $75,000
Distorted Humor (Forty Niner) $60,000
Yes It's True (Is It True) $25,000
Successful Appeal (Valid Appeal) $25,000
...and what about Forestry (also by Storm Cat) at $75,000...is he good value...he doesn't have a G1 winner...hasn't had a classic contender or even a top two-turn dirt horse...and on potential championship days (so far anyway) they're nowhere to be found.
I suggest some more good value is:
Cherokee Run (Runaway Groom) $40,000
Silver Deputy (Deputy Minister) $40,000
Carson City (Mr Prospector) $35,000
...and what about Tale of the Cat...would you sign on the dotted line for $65,000 ?
Some more good value (at the lower end) might be:
Northern Afleet (Afleet) $12,500
Grindstone (Unbridled) $10,000
Old Topper (Gilded Time) $5,000
and there are many more to choose from (at all stud fee levels) including stallions with first crops yet to race (or first crops yet to foal).
ef you wrote "...I do not agree that he (High Yield) was given tremendous support by Ashford. He did get a lot of mares, but certainly not Ashford's best! His CI is around 1.80 or so." ef I suggest that a stallion that has it in him WILL "make it" at stud...and mares with a 1.80 CI will assist in such a stallion's quest for success...not deter it.
I suggest High Yield had a very good opportunity and thus far has done NOTHING to write home about. To blame his lack of success on the quality of his book is NOT reasonable (in my opinion).
Furthermore, I expect that if a stallion is cut out to "make it" he'll move his mares up. Any decent stallion can take an abundance of those kind (1.80 CI) of mares and make his mark.
I'll go one step further and suggest that based on the opportunity availed High Yield (by Ashford and outside support)...and the expectations and (arguably) miserable early results...there probably have been discussions already regarding the future of High Yield. If he doesn't jump up with a big-time front-page horse in 2005 (or possibly prior to the upcoming breeding season...especially if he's not booking and a reasonable offer is made)...I'd be surprised if he wouldn't be destined for a new home. Any suggestions where that might be?
As you may sense...I suggest that it is fair to say that many thoroughbred breeders (and aficionados) believe that the Storm Cats (in general) are...
...overpriced underachievers...and very rarely good value.
Best to you.
'til later
Respectfully
Fos
You ask Elusive Quality at $100k or Giant's Causeway at $135k. For me Giant's Causeway every time. Not even in the same hunt. Are you suggesting that Elusive Quality has not had some of the sheiks best mares??? I'd go to Successful Appeal who also only has 2yo's and has not had good mares and he's $25k but in general I think your arguement has holes, with all due respect.
You ask Elusive Quality at $100k or Giant's Causeway at $135k. For me Giant's Causeway every time. Not even in the same hunt. Are you suggesting that Elusive Quality has not had some of the sheiks best mares??? I'd go to Successful Appeal who also only has 2yo's and has not had good mares and he's $25k but in general I think your arguement has holes, with all due respect.
hi Mike
Elusive Quality stood for $10,000 (when he retired to stud) and was not bred to many very good ones at the outset. If you do some pedigree research you might be surprised at the number of very average mares (and many that were arguably below) that were actually bred to EQ his first year.
I suggest...Elusive Quality is FAR superior to Giant's Causeway...no contest. Are you suggesting that you would sign the contract and breed to Giant's Causeway for US$135,000.
Consider this...Elusive Quality had no less than 11 stakes winners from his first crop (which consisted of 76 foals)...and among them...he had elite runners on the turf (including G1 winning 2 yo champion in France...Elusive City)...he also had runners that excelled on dirt (including the graded stakes winning colt Omega Code that as a two year-old set a 6 furlong track record on the dirt in 1:07 3/5)...quite incredible.
As you are probably aware, Elusive Quality has sired Ky Derby and Preakness winner Smarty Jones...who will certainly be crowned 3 year-old champion for 2004 (in North America). EQ's credentials are impeccable...particularly for such a young sire.
Believe me when I tell you...the Giant's Causeways (in North America) have been nothing less than embarrassing...and you know the kind of mares they were out of. Furthermore he received HUGE support from American breeders that sent no less than 40 mares to Coolmore Ireland (from the USA) to breed to the then freshman sire. Giant's Causeway's stud fee was well in excess of US$100,000 (no less than 10 times Elusive Quality's $10,000 stud fee) when he entered the stallion ranks.
Giant's Causeway may make it as a turf sire...he has 4 stakes winners accross the pond thus far including a G1 winner...
...but if you want to be fair you MUST consider the fact he has 137 named foals (in his first crop alone) and apparently some that are yet unnamed...and based on the quantity and quality of mares he covered I find it difficult to consider his accomplishments to be nearly what Elusive Quality's were with his first group.
The GC's I've seen personally (and that is many) are not the kind (in general) that I believe will make a big splash on North America dirt tracks.
Believe me...it seems very clear (and I believe it is reasonable to suggest) that Giant's Causeway is struggling thus far in North America anyway.
Regardless of his great credentials as a race horse and his lovely pedigree...and his 4 stakes winners from 137 foals...I submit that GC's 2005 US stud fee is significantly out of line at US$135,000.
I expect $75k (based on his European results thus far) might have been quite the appealing stud fee for 2005. I suggest he will not get the support at $135k that you may expect...and I believe deals aplenty will be made...otherwise I expect the size of his book (as it pertains to outside mares) will reduce.
I suggest it is wise to be extremely cautious with Giant's Causeway...particularly at US$135,000.
Best to you Mike.
Respectfully
Elusive Quality stood for $10,000 (when he retired to stud) and was not bred to many very good ones at the outset. If you do some pedigree research you might be surprised at the number of very average mares (and many that were arguably below) that were actually bred to EQ his first year.
I suggest...Elusive Quality is FAR superior to Giant's Causeway...no contest. Are you suggesting that you would sign the contract and breed to Giant's Causeway for US$135,000.
Consider this...Elusive Quality had no less than 11 stakes winners from his first crop (which consisted of 76 foals)...and among them...he had elite runners on the turf (including G1 winning 2 yo champion in France...Elusive City)...he also had runners that excelled on dirt (including the graded stakes winning colt Omega Code that as a two year-old set a 6 furlong track record on the dirt in 1:07 3/5)...quite incredible.
As you are probably aware, Elusive Quality has sired Ky Derby and Preakness winner Smarty Jones...who will certainly be crowned 3 year-old champion for 2004 (in North America). EQ's credentials are impeccable...particularly for such a young sire.
Believe me when I tell you...the Giant's Causeways (in North America) have been nothing less than embarrassing...and you know the kind of mares they were out of. Furthermore he received HUGE support from American breeders that sent no less than 40 mares to Coolmore Ireland (from the USA) to breed to the then freshman sire. Giant's Causeway's stud fee was well in excess of US$100,000 (no less than 10 times Elusive Quality's $10,000 stud fee) when he entered the stallion ranks.
Giant's Causeway may make it as a turf sire...he has 4 stakes winners accross the pond thus far including a G1 winner...
...but if you want to be fair you MUST consider the fact he has 137 named foals (in his first crop alone) and apparently some that are yet unnamed...and based on the quantity and quality of mares he covered I find it difficult to consider his accomplishments to be nearly what Elusive Quality's were with his first group.
The GC's I've seen personally (and that is many) are not the kind (in general) that I believe will make a big splash on North America dirt tracks.
Believe me...it seems very clear (and I believe it is reasonable to suggest) that Giant's Causeway is struggling thus far in North America anyway.
Regardless of his great credentials as a race horse and his lovely pedigree...and his 4 stakes winners from 137 foals...I submit that GC's 2005 US stud fee is significantly out of line at US$135,000.
I expect $75k (based on his European results thus far) might have been quite the appealing stud fee for 2005. I suggest he will not get the support at $135k that you may expect...and I believe deals aplenty will be made...otherwise I expect the size of his book (as it pertains to outside mares) will reduce.
I suggest it is wise to be extremely cautious with Giant's Causeway...particularly at US$135,000.
Best to you Mike.
Respectfully
Hi FOS
I have a GC filly in the paddock at the moment and another on the way. We have yet to see how he performs when 3yo's hit the track, but I'm hoping that you'll be surprised!!
He didn't stand for that down here but was around $100k Aus. and this year about $77k Aus.
For obvious reasons, I hope you're wrong.
My filly is well put together and really looks like a 2yo type. I have no reason to be worried at this stage, if fact I'm looking forward to two years from now.
Best regards
I have a GC filly in the paddock at the moment and another on the way. We have yet to see how he performs when 3yo's hit the track, but I'm hoping that you'll be surprised!!
He didn't stand for that down here but was around $100k Aus. and this year about $77k Aus.
For obvious reasons, I hope you're wrong.
My filly is well put together and really looks like a 2yo type. I have no reason to be worried at this stage, if fact I'm looking forward to two years from now.
Best regards
Hi all,
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.
KAL- I totally see what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.
FOS- I guess we're just going to have to disagree for now on the Storm Cat sons.
I must comment on one thing- I am floored by your statements that Giant's Causeway is a failure so far here in the States. I agree with you that he has some nicely bred babies here. However, have you seen who they're out of? Giant's Causeway was, overall, bred to a bunch of long-winded, turf mares, or late-developing/distance dirt mares. This includes his "Amerian" mares (many of whom are either ex-Europeans, or from European-raced familes)! Here's a list of the US Giant's Causeway's that I'm aware of, with their dams; I've italicized the ones who I think might have some dirt capabilities, based on pedigree.
1. Angliana, C, Pratella (Jade Hunter) - dam GSW on TURF. Colt 4th, 7f dirt, only start.
2. Ballymena, F, Lypink (Lyphard) - dam LSW 10f TURF Europe. Filly 5th 1 1/16T, only start.
3. Boulder Tiger, C, Devil's Needle (Nureyev). Unraced dam disappointing producer so far; 2nd dam English (TURF!) Filly Triple Crown winner Oh So Sharp. Colt has run one time, 6f on the dirt.
4. Cause He's Irish, C, Irish Linnet (Seattle Song) - dam RSW 1/18 TURF. Unraced; has worked in CA.
5. Cause UR Mine, C, Lavendar Mine (Mr. Prospector)- dam winner, 7f TURF Ireland; 2nd dam SW, dirt at 3; 3rd dam Beldame winner. Unraced, working at SA.
6. Charm the Giant, F, Olympic Charmer (Olympio) - dam GSW, dirt, 7f-1 1/16. Filly 5th, 5.5 furlongs Turf, lone start.
7. Chief's Giant, C, Seeta (Machiavellian) - dam 1/2 sister to Epsom Oaks winner (TURF!). Colt Working at Bel; unraced.
8. Complicated, C, Humble Eight (Seattle Battle)- dam GSW at 3, 1 1/16 dirt. Colt unraced; working at Bel.
9. Dancingintheaisles, C, Amizette (Forty Niner)- dam disappointing producer so far. Daughter of Courtley Dee. Colt working at SA; unraced.
10. Finn Maccunaill, C, Fontemar (Babor). dam Argentinian classic winner and dam of two stakes winners in Argentina; I'm not sure of age/dirt/turf. Colt sold for a whopping 10K. Working at FG.
11. Giant Hope, C, Hopespringsforever (Mr. Prospector)- half to Union City, G1SP at 3 on the dirt and Apollo Cat, LSW at 2, dirt. Dam full to Miswaki, G1SW TURF juvenile. Colt 4th in only start, 1 mi 70 yards at Med.
12. Giant Wrecker, C, Homewrecker (Buckaroo). half to Prenup (G1SW at 3), Cat's At Home (late-developing GSW), etc. Colt working at Bel; unraced.
13. Higher Cause, C, Antique Pearl (Darshaan). Dam winner, 10f TURF, France. Colt working at Hol.
14. Jewel of the Night, F, Jeweled Lady (General Meeting). Dam sister to excellent two year old Excellent Meeting. Filly 2x runner, 1 mile dirt, 1 mile turf.
15. Key Causeway, F, Key Hunter (Jade Hunter). SW dam 3rd Coaching Club American Oaks. Filly has placed. 3 starts, from 5.5f-7, all dirt.
16. Lady and Red, F, Courtesane (Majestic Light). Filly is 1/2 sister to European champion 14+ furlong TURF mare Deliliah. Filly unraced, working at CRU.
17. Maillol, C, Regina Maria (Unbridled). Dam unraced 1/2 sister to Tejano Run. Colt has placed, while running once at 7f and once at a mile.
18. Matt's Giant, C, Anna Sterz (Danzig). Dam winner at 3 and sister to Boundary, GSW 3 and 4. Colt has run once, finishing 4th 5.5f dirt race.
19. My Typhoon, F, Urban Sea (Miswaki). Dam Arc winner and dam of Galileo, etc (TURRRRFF!!). Filly was very impressive winning debut 1 1/16 on the sod, then disapointed in next start, a listed turf stakes.
20. Noble Causeway, C, Mimi's Golden Girl (Seeking the Gold). Dam winner at 4; 2nd dam Classy Cathy, winner of the Alabama, etc. Colt 2x runner, 5th 1 mile T, and most recently nice 2nd at 7f on the dirt.
21. Stormy Heaven, F, Wild Heaven (Darshaan). dam LSW 9f TURF Europe. Filly has run once, over 7fT.
22. Zurich, C, Utr (Mr. Prospector). Colt 1/2 to Bonnard, G1SP on the TURF, 8-10f. Colt has run 4x, finishing second in all three of his starts at 1 1/6T.
others who may be in the states:
23. Ask First, F, Clementine's Cap (Forty Niner). Dam winner at 3; 2nd dam In My Cap- Can. SW at 2 and 3; 2nd Canadian Oaks. Filly unraced.
24. Giant's Promise, F, Affirm Promise (Affirm). Dam winner at 3 and 4; sp at 1 1/16. Filly unraced.
25. Just Cause, C, Angelica Tree (Time for a Change). Placed dam 1/2 sister to G1SW TURF Sligo Bay. 2nd dam sister to Glorious Song et al. Colt unraced.
26. Legendary Destiny, F, Courtly Queen (Mr. Prospector). Unraced dam; 2nd dam SW at 2 or 3 and sister to River Special. Filly unraced.
27. Long Shadow, C, Quaestio (Seeking the Gold). Dam winner at 2 on TURF in Europe; dam sister to Muktaddim, LSW and GSP in Europe, 6f-mile. Colt unraced.
28. My Bonny Lass, F, Aly's Jul (Alysheba). 1/2 to Forty Nine Carats, good 3yr old. Filly unraced.
29. Peoples Cause, C, Ovazione (Seeking the Gold). dam placed in Europe, 2nd dam sister to Septieme Ciel, a G1SW TURF sprinter in France.
As you can see, I've italicized 13 of the 29 as potential dirt horses. I was going to go back through and bold all the ones that were bred to be precocious. I just didn't see any. What does surprise me is how many of his turf bred babies have been tried (unsuccessfully) at 5.5-7 furlongs on the dirt. I just don't see how you can dismiss a sire for not siring precocious two year olds when he has not been bred to ANY sources of precocious speed!
In sum, FOS, it looks to me like people might be getting what they bred for by sending him late developing dirt and turf horses- juvies who are green as grass and will only improve next year.
best,
EF
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.
KAL- I totally see what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.
FOS- I guess we're just going to have to disagree for now on the Storm Cat sons.
I must comment on one thing- I am floored by your statements that Giant's Causeway is a failure so far here in the States. I agree with you that he has some nicely bred babies here. However, have you seen who they're out of? Giant's Causeway was, overall, bred to a bunch of long-winded, turf mares, or late-developing/distance dirt mares. This includes his "Amerian" mares (many of whom are either ex-Europeans, or from European-raced familes)! Here's a list of the US Giant's Causeway's that I'm aware of, with their dams; I've italicized the ones who I think might have some dirt capabilities, based on pedigree.
1. Angliana, C, Pratella (Jade Hunter) - dam GSW on TURF. Colt 4th, 7f dirt, only start.
2. Ballymena, F, Lypink (Lyphard) - dam LSW 10f TURF Europe. Filly 5th 1 1/16T, only start.
3. Boulder Tiger, C, Devil's Needle (Nureyev). Unraced dam disappointing producer so far; 2nd dam English (TURF!) Filly Triple Crown winner Oh So Sharp. Colt has run one time, 6f on the dirt.
4. Cause He's Irish, C, Irish Linnet (Seattle Song) - dam RSW 1/18 TURF. Unraced; has worked in CA.
5. Cause UR Mine, C, Lavendar Mine (Mr. Prospector)- dam winner, 7f TURF Ireland; 2nd dam SW, dirt at 3; 3rd dam Beldame winner. Unraced, working at SA.
6. Charm the Giant, F, Olympic Charmer (Olympio) - dam GSW, dirt, 7f-1 1/16. Filly 5th, 5.5 furlongs Turf, lone start.
7. Chief's Giant, C, Seeta (Machiavellian) - dam 1/2 sister to Epsom Oaks winner (TURF!). Colt Working at Bel; unraced.
8. Complicated, C, Humble Eight (Seattle Battle)- dam GSW at 3, 1 1/16 dirt. Colt unraced; working at Bel.
9. Dancingintheaisles, C, Amizette (Forty Niner)- dam disappointing producer so far. Daughter of Courtley Dee. Colt working at SA; unraced.
10. Finn Maccunaill, C, Fontemar (Babor). dam Argentinian classic winner and dam of two stakes winners in Argentina; I'm not sure of age/dirt/turf. Colt sold for a whopping 10K. Working at FG.
11. Giant Hope, C, Hopespringsforever (Mr. Prospector)- half to Union City, G1SP at 3 on the dirt and Apollo Cat, LSW at 2, dirt. Dam full to Miswaki, G1SW TURF juvenile. Colt 4th in only start, 1 mi 70 yards at Med.
12. Giant Wrecker, C, Homewrecker (Buckaroo). half to Prenup (G1SW at 3), Cat's At Home (late-developing GSW), etc. Colt working at Bel; unraced.
13. Higher Cause, C, Antique Pearl (Darshaan). Dam winner, 10f TURF, France. Colt working at Hol.
14. Jewel of the Night, F, Jeweled Lady (General Meeting). Dam sister to excellent two year old Excellent Meeting. Filly 2x runner, 1 mile dirt, 1 mile turf.
15. Key Causeway, F, Key Hunter (Jade Hunter). SW dam 3rd Coaching Club American Oaks. Filly has placed. 3 starts, from 5.5f-7, all dirt.
16. Lady and Red, F, Courtesane (Majestic Light). Filly is 1/2 sister to European champion 14+ furlong TURF mare Deliliah. Filly unraced, working at CRU.
17. Maillol, C, Regina Maria (Unbridled). Dam unraced 1/2 sister to Tejano Run. Colt has placed, while running once at 7f and once at a mile.
18. Matt's Giant, C, Anna Sterz (Danzig). Dam winner at 3 and sister to Boundary, GSW 3 and 4. Colt has run once, finishing 4th 5.5f dirt race.
19. My Typhoon, F, Urban Sea (Miswaki). Dam Arc winner and dam of Galileo, etc (TURRRRFF!!). Filly was very impressive winning debut 1 1/16 on the sod, then disapointed in next start, a listed turf stakes.
20. Noble Causeway, C, Mimi's Golden Girl (Seeking the Gold). Dam winner at 4; 2nd dam Classy Cathy, winner of the Alabama, etc. Colt 2x runner, 5th 1 mile T, and most recently nice 2nd at 7f on the dirt.
21. Stormy Heaven, F, Wild Heaven (Darshaan). dam LSW 9f TURF Europe. Filly has run once, over 7fT.
22. Zurich, C, Utr (Mr. Prospector). Colt 1/2 to Bonnard, G1SP on the TURF, 8-10f. Colt has run 4x, finishing second in all three of his starts at 1 1/6T.
others who may be in the states:
23. Ask First, F, Clementine's Cap (Forty Niner). Dam winner at 3; 2nd dam In My Cap- Can. SW at 2 and 3; 2nd Canadian Oaks. Filly unraced.
24. Giant's Promise, F, Affirm Promise (Affirm). Dam winner at 3 and 4; sp at 1 1/16. Filly unraced.
25. Just Cause, C, Angelica Tree (Time for a Change). Placed dam 1/2 sister to G1SW TURF Sligo Bay. 2nd dam sister to Glorious Song et al. Colt unraced.
26. Legendary Destiny, F, Courtly Queen (Mr. Prospector). Unraced dam; 2nd dam SW at 2 or 3 and sister to River Special. Filly unraced.
27. Long Shadow, C, Quaestio (Seeking the Gold). Dam winner at 2 on TURF in Europe; dam sister to Muktaddim, LSW and GSP in Europe, 6f-mile. Colt unraced.
28. My Bonny Lass, F, Aly's Jul (Alysheba). 1/2 to Forty Nine Carats, good 3yr old. Filly unraced.
29. Peoples Cause, C, Ovazione (Seeking the Gold). dam placed in Europe, 2nd dam sister to Septieme Ciel, a G1SW TURF sprinter in France.
As you can see, I've italicized 13 of the 29 as potential dirt horses. I was going to go back through and bold all the ones that were bred to be precocious. I just didn't see any. What does surprise me is how many of his turf bred babies have been tried (unsuccessfully) at 5.5-7 furlongs on the dirt. I just don't see how you can dismiss a sire for not siring precocious two year olds when he has not been bred to ANY sources of precocious speed!
In sum, FOS, it looks to me like people might be getting what they bred for by sending him late developing dirt and turf horses- juvies who are green as grass and will only improve next year.
best,
EF
Good points by all. There are two problems/factors contributing to the "Storm Cat not being a sire of sire discussion". Just as was the case with Northern Dancer, every Storm Cat gets a chance at stud which a) floods the market and b) Makes failures out of stallions that never should have been given the chance to begin with. Secondly, he has not had a son that is so successful to guarantee the continuation of the line, although I can't imagine it ending. I think he is kind of like Danzig before Danhill was cemented. As far as the list of question mark Storm Cat's watch for Catienus. The quality of his current weanlings is his best crop yet and the mares bred in 2004 are exceptional by New York standards (Not Kentucky) and all these will be collecting those NY bred purses just as slots reach Aqueduct and Belmont (may be).
hi ef
Thanks for your insights...but I challenge some of your information...or at least how you may be evaluating it.
For example...you wrote..."Giant's Causeway was, overall, bred to a bunch of long-winded, turf mares, or late-developing/distance dirt mares." you went on to say "I've italicized the ones who I think might have some dirt capabilities, based on pedigree"
ef...let's look at # 28 My Bonny Lass (for example)...you DID NOT italicize her so she must fall into your "long-winded, turf mares or late developing distance dirt mares" category. hmmm.
Consider this...her half-brother Forty One Carats (not Forty Nine Carats, as you wrote) set the track record at Calder (which is historically a very slow track)...in 1:08 4/5 on the dirt (obviously faster then any horse in the history of Calder...include the highly respected Orientate).
Forty One Carats also set the track record at the Meadowlands when he won the G2 Pegasus H ( 1 1/8 miles) in 1:45 2/5...carrying 120 lbs (co-highweight).
1:45 2/5 is not just fast...it's "freaky" fast...I cannot recall a horse that ran a faster mile and an eighth on the dirt in North America in recent years.
ef...it would be interesting to know...when was the last time that 1:45 2/5 was recorded (in North America) for 1 1/8 miles on the dirt? That is an INCREDIBLE race time..1:45 2/5 (for 1 1/8 miles on the dirt).
ef I submit...the filly that you reference as #28 (My Bonny Lass) is out of a mare that produced one of the fastest (and most versatile) horses that I can recall in recent years.
I suggest...possibly the way that you evaluate horses may be different than the way I evaluate horses...stallions...broodmares...and opportunities.
I appreciate (and enjoy) your communications...but stand firm regarding my comments relating to Giant's Causeway...and his current success (or lack thereof).
Be assured I do not poo-poo the possibility that ultimately he may have North American success...and who knows for sure...maybe he'll be a great one here...
...but right now there's barely a pulse (in North America anyway).
But he has the best opportunities...and strong support from Coolmore...I am confident they will do everything within their power to help GC succeed.
Best to you always.
Respectfully
Thanks for your insights...but I challenge some of your information...or at least how you may be evaluating it.
For example...you wrote..."Giant's Causeway was, overall, bred to a bunch of long-winded, turf mares, or late-developing/distance dirt mares." you went on to say "I've italicized the ones who I think might have some dirt capabilities, based on pedigree"
ef...let's look at # 28 My Bonny Lass (for example)...you DID NOT italicize her so she must fall into your "long-winded, turf mares or late developing distance dirt mares" category. hmmm.
Consider this...her half-brother Forty One Carats (not Forty Nine Carats, as you wrote) set the track record at Calder (which is historically a very slow track)...in 1:08 4/5 on the dirt (obviously faster then any horse in the history of Calder...include the highly respected Orientate).
Forty One Carats also set the track record at the Meadowlands when he won the G2 Pegasus H ( 1 1/8 miles) in 1:45 2/5...carrying 120 lbs (co-highweight).
1:45 2/5 is not just fast...it's "freaky" fast...I cannot recall a horse that ran a faster mile and an eighth on the dirt in North America in recent years.
ef...it would be interesting to know...when was the last time that 1:45 2/5 was recorded (in North America) for 1 1/8 miles on the dirt? That is an INCREDIBLE race time..1:45 2/5 (for 1 1/8 miles on the dirt).
ef I submit...the filly that you reference as #28 (My Bonny Lass) is out of a mare that produced one of the fastest (and most versatile) horses that I can recall in recent years.
I suggest...possibly the way that you evaluate horses may be different than the way I evaluate horses...stallions...broodmares...and opportunities.
I appreciate (and enjoy) your communications...but stand firm regarding my comments relating to Giant's Causeway...and his current success (or lack thereof).
Be assured I do not poo-poo the possibility that ultimately he may have North American success...and who knows for sure...maybe he'll be a great one here...
...but right now there's barely a pulse (in North America anyway).
But he has the best opportunities...and strong support from Coolmore...I am confident they will do everything within their power to help GC succeed.
Best to you always.
Respectfully
hi Mike
Is it fair to say that ALL the early successes for Giant's Causeway are on the "grass?" If that is the case (as I expect it may be)...you may very well have a potential star (or two) on your hands.
Mike...to a large degree I find the northern hemisphere stud fee that is tagged onto Giant's Causeway, to be significantly out-of-line...and worthy of serious scrutiny. I suggest that US$135,000 is difficult to understand (or justify)...although when the name Coolmore is attached...anything is possible.
On the other hand...the stud fee you indicated (AUS$77,000) that Giant's Causeway apparently commands now for southern hemisphere duty, sounds like it may be very good value...a mere fraction of what it would cost you to breed to the same Giant's Causeway at his Lexington address.
Mike...I wish you the best (and the same for Giant's Causeway and his connections)...
...but when a stallion (such as Giant's Causeway) is afforded EVERY possible opportunity for success (including HUGE books of quality mares...and a "machine" like Coolmore behind him etc etc etc)...I expect results, and not excuses.
To my way of thinking he's extremely disappointing in North America (at least thus far)...but as we all know, things can change...and very well may.
It might be interesting to revisit Giant's Causeway's on a regular basis.
Best to you.
Respectfully
Is it fair to say that ALL the early successes for Giant's Causeway are on the "grass?" If that is the case (as I expect it may be)...you may very well have a potential star (or two) on your hands.
Mike...to a large degree I find the northern hemisphere stud fee that is tagged onto Giant's Causeway, to be significantly out-of-line...and worthy of serious scrutiny. I suggest that US$135,000 is difficult to understand (or justify)...although when the name Coolmore is attached...anything is possible.
On the other hand...the stud fee you indicated (AUS$77,000) that Giant's Causeway apparently commands now for southern hemisphere duty, sounds like it may be very good value...a mere fraction of what it would cost you to breed to the same Giant's Causeway at his Lexington address.
Mike...I wish you the best (and the same for Giant's Causeway and his connections)...
...but when a stallion (such as Giant's Causeway) is afforded EVERY possible opportunity for success (including HUGE books of quality mares...and a "machine" like Coolmore behind him etc etc etc)...I expect results, and not excuses.
To my way of thinking he's extremely disappointing in North America (at least thus far)...but as we all know, things can change...and very well may.
It might be interesting to revisit Giant's Causeway's on a regular basis.
Best to you.
Respectfully