Bandini to Walmac

[Ill-bred]

Bandini will stand at Walmac Farm in Lexington for $17,500.

I thought he could have been Ashford's cheaper alternative to Fu Peg.

But then I looked up Fu Peg's #s this morning. He's getting 30% winners and 4% stakes winners. Guess they don't need a cheaper version of that.

As for Bandini, I was never completely sold on him as a racehorse, but he did look fabulus the day he won the Blue Grass, and he has a good enough female family to provide hope.

[FOS]

hi Ill-bred

Bandini will stand at Walmac Farm in Lexington for $17,500.

I thought he could have been Ashford's cheaper alternative to Fu Peg.

But then I looked up Fu Peg's #s this morning. He's getting 30% winners and 4% stakes winners. Guess they don't need a cheaper version of that.

Arguably...FuPeg is the weak link in this formula.

As for Bandini, I was never completely sold on him as a racehorse, but he did look fabulus the day he won the Blue Grass, and he has a good enough female family to provide hope.

Bandini does offer a nice female family...but, All Things Considered (including quality and quantity of opportunity) it might be fair to say that Fusaichi Pegagsus is stumbling badly...and might (in the minds of some if not many ) prove to be difficult (if not impossible) to swallow...at $17.5k.

Respectfully

[reese]

hi Ill-bred

Bandini will stand at Walmac Farm in Lexington for $17,500.

I thought he could have been Ashford's cheaper alternative to Fu Peg.

But then I looked up Fu Peg's #s this morning. He's getting 30% winners and 4% stakes winners. Guess they don't need a cheaper version of that.

Arguably...FuPeg is the weak link in this formula.

As for Bandini, I was never completely sold on him as a racehorse, but he did look fabulus the day he won the Blue Grass, and he has a good enough female family to provide hope.

Bandini does offer a nice female family...but, All Things Considered (including quality and quantity of opportunity) it might be fair to say that Fusaichi Pegagsus is stumbling badly...and might (in the minds of some if not many ) prove to be difficult (if not impossible) to swallow...at $17.5k.

Respectfully

Would someone explain EXACTLY the problem with Fusaichi Pegasus?
He was bred to 213 mares in 2005 and had 80% conception rate.
He has a very decent record at the sales.
His stud fee is 125k.

How can FP be at fault if he is bred "indiscriminately" to mares with owners who "actually pay 125k" to the chicken factory?
I cannot believe that more than a fraction of those 213 mares were actually good matches for FP.

How many stakes winning/ blueblood mares was FuPeg bred to?

I understand the concept of stallions raising the mares index(which ever one it is) but is it accurate to compare FP to stallions bred to "blue-blood" mares?

Anyone here ever see Fusaichi Pegasus race? He has the pedigree too.
I cannot believe the horse is the problem, but Coolmore is.

[madelyn]

[quote="reese]

Would someone explain EXACTLY the problem with Fusaichi Pegasus?
He was bred to 213 mares in 2005 and had 80% conception rate.
He has a very decent record at the sales.
His stud fee is 125k.
[/quote]

What do you consider a decent record at the sales?

[reese]

[quote="reese]

Would someone explain EXACTLY the problem with Fusaichi Pegasus?
He was bred to 213 mares in 2005 and had 80% conception rate.
He has a very decent record at the sales.
His stud fee is 125k.

What do you consider a decent record at the sales?[/quote]


What I read in the stallion register. If there is a better source of info for a non-breeder, point me to it. Certain parts of the The Jockey Club are available to non-members, but not sales.

FP has 2 G-1 winners as a second crop sire.
There was also a poster on another site from Taylor Made Sales who said, "the current market is such that one big horse makes a stallion, and the more soldiers you have on the ground the better change of getting that soldier. Taylor Made poster said they plan on 125 for Officer...far from the 213 bred by FP at the factory.

http://www.stallionregister.com/sr_sire ... rigin=link[url][/url]

[Intrinsic Worth]

A good stallion should be able to upgrade some of those 200 something mares and produce better results than he has. He's done virtually nothing big this year in the US. His only decent runner this year is now retired.

[Intrinsic Worth]

BTW - There is a general concensus that FuPeg's offspring are certifiably insane, thanks to that wonderful dam of his.

[FOS]

hi reese

Would someone explain EXACTLY the problem with Fusaichi Pegasus?
He was bred to 213 mares in 2005 and had 80% conception rate.
He has a very decent record at the sales.
His stud fee is 125k.

What do you consider a decent record at the sales?

What I read in the stallion register. If there is a better source of info for a non-breeder, point me to it. Certain parts of the The Jockey Club are available to non-members, but not sales.

FP has 2 G-1 winners as a second crop sire.
There was also a poster on another site from Taylor Made Sales who said, "the current market is such that one big horse makes a stallion, and the more soldiers you have on the ground the better change of getting that soldier. Taylor Made poster said they plan on 125 for Officer...far from the 213 bred by FP at the factory.

reese...you might consider the following.

If in fact it's Taylor Made's position (as you indicated...and I bolded, above) "that the current market is such one big horse makes a stallion..." I suggest, you might ask (yourself and/or them) the following...

...Why were former Taylor Made stallions Artax...Our Emblem...and Storm Creek (each that was moved to stand at Taylor Made after starting their stud career elsewhere...and each the sire of a Grade 1 winner) expatriated? You might also ask about Tiznow (another stallion that Taylor Made is associated with and pusssshed aggressively). He too had the big horse (G1 winner and champion Folklore in his first crop no less); but, seems to be on a titanic course...not unlike Storm Creek...Artax and Our Emblem were. You might ask how many breeders took it on the chin as a result of their support of Storm Creek, Artax and Our Emblem, while they stood at Taylor Made? Arguably MANY MANY MANY...too MANY were hammered.

I suggest...BEWARE the hype and spin that stallion managers/owners (and others that have a vested interest in a stallion)...often offer up. Watch closely...you might witness the Pinochio effect as their noses grow right before your eyes...while they stoke (or maybe stroke is a better word) your dreams.

I recommend that breeders BEWARE the hype and spin, and separate the wheat from the chaff...do their due diligence (All Things Should Be Considered)...and understand that a stallion's services are a product for sale.

That said...if a breeder is satisfied that the price is right and a stallion (any stallion, including Officer...or Bandini...or even Fusaichi Pegasus) satisfies his/her needs...go for it.

Thoroughbreds are beautiful, often breathtaking...and very special (in the eyes of many)...but remember, when salesmanship and/or the prospects of money changing hands comes into play...arguably, it's business...so BEWARE.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[Intrinsic Worth]

I have a hard time feeling sorry for mare owners who do fall for the hype and end up losing lots of money.

Storm Creek has found a niche (finally) in New Zealand and hopefully he will stay there permanently at some point.

[reese]

hi reese

Would someone explain EXACTLY the problem with Fusaichi Pegasus?
He was bred to 213 mares in 2005 and had 80% conception rate.
He has a very decent record at the sales.
His stud fee is 125k.

What do you consider a decent record at the sales?

What I read in the stallion register. If there is a better source of info for a non-breeder, point me to it. Certain parts of the The Jockey Club are available to non-members, but not sales.

FP has 2 G-1 winners as a second crop sire.
There was also a poster on another site from Taylor Made Sales who said, "the current market is such that one big horse makes a stallion, and the more soldiers you have on the ground the better change of getting that soldier. Taylor Made poster said they plan on 125 for Officer...far from the 213 bred by FP at the factory.

reese...you might consider the following.

If in fact it's Taylor Made's position (as you indicated...and I bolded, above) "that the current market is such one big horse makes a stallion..." I suggest, you might ask (yourself and/or them) the following...

...Why were former Taylor Made stallions Artax...Our Emblem...and Storm Creek (each that was moved to stand at Taylor Made after starting their stud career elsewhere...and each the sire of a Grade 1 winner) expatriated? You might also ask about Tiznow (another stallion that Taylor Made is associated with and pusssshed aggressively). He too had the big horse (G1 winner and champion Folklore in his first crop no less); but, seems to be on a titanic course...not unlike Storm Creek...Artax and Our Emblem were. You might ask how many breeders took it on the chin as a result of their support of Storm Creek, Artax and Our Emblem, while they stood at Taylor Made? Arguably MANY MANY MANY...too MANY were hammered.

I suggest...BEWARE the hype and spin that stallion managers/owners (and others that have a vested interest in a stallion)...often offer up. Watch closely...you might witness the Pinochio effect as their noses grow right before your eyes...while they stoke (or maybe stroke is a better word) your dreams.

I recommend that breeders BEWARE the hype and spin, and separate the wheat from the chaff...do their due diligence (All Things Should Be Considered)...and understand that a stallion's services are a product for sale.

That said...if a breeder is satisfied that the price is right and a stallion (any stallion, including Officer...or Bandini...or even Fusaichi Pegasus) satisfies his/her needs...go for it.

Thoroughbreds are beautiful, often breathtaking...and very special (in the eyes of many)...but remember, when salesmanship and/or the prospects of money changing hands comes into play...arguably, it's business...so BEWARE.

Best to you.

Respectfully

Thank you for your inciteful post.

I don't think of myself as naive, but I can understand that I am in this venue, especially since I fell for that smooth sales line...a horse trader is a horse trader..

Breeders are "betting" on horses the same as handicappers/stockbrokers/gamblers...synthesizing information to reach informed decisions that result in profitable outcomes.
The risk for some breeders though, is they can be "betting the farm" unlike, handicappers or stockbrokers.

I guess the hearsay re Forty Nine sold to raise cash is a reality for even the farms like that one.

[brogers]

Fos

I think that I have been misquoted, or at least my quote has been taken out of context completely. click on the link below and scroll down to the bottom to see where I made the comment that has been snipped. I think that you will find it had a totally different tone to what is being represented here.

http://thoroughbredchampions.com/forum/index.php?topic=8182.15

Also, for what it is worth, Taylor Made lost more money than any individual breeder on Artax, Our Emblem and Storm Creek. We took a shot, put our money where our mouth was by investing heavily in the stallion and took a an absolute pasting when we got it wrong. Our Emblem was a tear up of the highest proportions for Taylor Made and if I could give you the figure it would make you sick. We got it wrong, we admitted it and cut the loss where we could and moved on. That is economic reality.

I have often wondered, If one feels that the farm has done a major injustice to breeders when a stallion goes commerically sour, almost to the point where breeders feel that they have been 'sold to' and deserve some type of restitution, do we have any rights to ask the breeders who have made a killing off Saint Ballado, Unbridled's Song and Forestry to give us a little more because they have done so well?

[Old Goat]

Very well put Byron. I agree with you 100% Nobody knows if a stallion is going to be a dud or a stud. If any of you out there can predict that then call me so I can have you book all the mares for me.

[henthorn]

Stud farms that support their stallions with good "spin", advertising, and their own mares are successful farms. But only if they recognize when they see limited potential in specific horses, and sell early enough, to play another day. Good job, Taylor Made!

[FOS]

hi brogers

Fos

I think that I have been misquoted, or at least my quote has been taken out of context completely. click on the link below and scroll down to the bottom to see where I made the comment that has been snipped. I think that you will find it had a totally different tone to what is being represented here.

http://thoroughbredchampions.com/forum/index.php?topic=8182.15

I read your comments (as you recommended) at the link you offered...

... Stallions seem to be surviving on the one "big horse" now so the more soldiers you can put on the ground the more likely you are to win the war. ...

...Our goal is (for Officer) to serve 125 mares next year. He might serve a few more if he can handle it but having never worked with him before we want to make sure he can. ...

Respectfully...I appreciate your comments (including portions reprinted above) and understand that they are not exactly as reese credited to you; but, to say "it had a totally different tone to what is being represented here" (your words) is arguably a stretch (to my way of thinking).

...for what it is worth, Taylor Made lost more money than any individual breeder on Artax, Our Emblem and Storm Creek.

I don't doubt that Taylor Made "...lost more money than any individual breeder..." (your words)...but the point I might highlight is that (and correct me if I am wrong) MANY people TRUSTED Taylor Made and followed their strong recommendations that they breed mares to Storm Creek...Artax...and Our Emblem. Fast forward...to a large degree they got hammered; first with Storm Creek...again with Artax...then slammed with Our Emblem.

We took a shot, put our money where our mouth was by investing heavily in the stallion and took a an absolute pasting when we got it wrong. Our Emblem was a tear up of the highest proportions for Taylor Made and if I could give you the figure it would make you sick.

I don't doubt that Taylor Made (and investors) took it on the chin (or even took an absolute pasting, as you wrote)...but the real question is how many times are clients supposed to TRUST the advice of anyone (not just Taylor Made) when all too often the results of the advice (and/or recommendation/s) are titanic-like?

You might agree, that at some point (after results seem to be so awful, so regularly, for so many) many breeders might (if they hadn't before) question (among other things) not only the credibility of a farm's stallion selection skills, stud fees etc...but also their advice and/or recommendations to use the farm's stallions.

Setting fees is always tough to do but we think that with Officer we have set a fee that will work.

I expect that $40,000 (the announced 2007 stud fee for Officer) will work for Taylor Made...but, based on what occurred with Storm Creek, Our Emblem, Artax and Exploit (plus I expect many are watching to see how Northern Afleet fares), I am not as confident (as you seem to be), that it will work (in general) for many breeders.

Respectfully, brogers...it might be interesting if you would list (for discussion's sake) all the yearlings sired by current Taylor Made stallions, that sold at Keeneland September 2006...including their sales prices (per the Keeneland on-line sales results). Such a list could offer a unique perspective, and would also indicate...1/ how many of those yearlings sold for prices equal to or greater than the advertised stud fees that were in place at the time those yearlings were conceived...AND...2/ how many of those yearlings (by current Taylor Made stallions) show as being sold for prices equal to or greater than their sires' 2007 advertised stud fees. RNAs could be a topic for discussion also.

Of course those sales prices represent gross figures. Regardless, they could be a starting point for discussion with the understanding that to arrive at net figures...stud fees and sales taxes, costs of raising the horses...registration fees...stakes and BC nomination fees, sales and agency commissions, insurance premiums, vanning etc etc etc would have to be deducted from the gross to arrive at the net. For starters though...a complete overview of the gross sales prices (and how they compare to advertised stud fees) would at least be a starting place for further discussion .

brogers...respectfully, the game is arguably extremely tough (maybe tougher than ever) and often unforgiving; and, (after a quick glance) I sense that the Keeneland September 2006 sales results might support that notion.

There is likely some wisdom in the words credited to Horatio Luro...'don't squeeze the lemon dry'

Best to you.

Respectfully

[Sam]

it might be interesting if you would list (for discussion's sake) all the yearlings sired by current Taylor Made stallions, that sold at Keeneland September 2006...including their sales prices (per the Keeneland on-line sales results).

Red = horse sold for less than advertized stud fee
Orange = Horse sold for less than double advertized stud fee.

eta: correcting for 2004 stud fees.

Distorted Humor ($50K in 2004):

Colt:

46 -- $425k
52 -- $700k
67 -- ($275k) not sold
109 -- $225k
112 -- ($425k) not sold
116 -- $500k
149 -- $650k
192 -- $1,050k
243 -- $550k
249 -- $585k
384 -- $125k
428 -- $325k
442 -- $500k
451 -- ($120k) not sold
459 -- $400k
506 -- ($230k) not sold
538 -- $175k
547 -- $250k
709 -- $180k
736 -- $240k
790 -- $500k
859 -- $180k
942 -- $1,200k
1005 -- $240k
1033 -- Out
1051 -- $200k
1077 -- $275k
1290 -- $180k
1292 -- $90k
1300 -- $300k
1515 -- ($225k) not sold
1637 -- $130k
1663 -- $85k
1745 -- $240k
1860 -- Out
1932 -- $180k
1958 -- $40k
1961 -- Out
1996 -- ($100k) not sold
2021 -- $140k
2267 -- Out
2372 -- Out
3384 -- Out
4275 -- Out

Filly

1 -- $475k
5 -- $350k
135 -- $250k
163 -- $105k
336 -- $350k
407 -- ($185k) not sold
408 -- ($200k) not sold
471 -- $240k
569 -- $500k
607 -- $220k
751 -- Out
780 -- ($95k) not sold
847 -- Out
977 -- $275k
992 -- $170k
1049 -- ($125k) not sold
1176 -- $65k
1241 -- ($150k) not sold
1501 -- ($55k) not sold
1570 -- Out
1572 -- $70k
1590 -- $72k
1890 -- ($145k) not sold
2087 -- $250k
2176 -- $185k
2206 -- $70k
2497 -- ($60k) not sold
3265 -- Out
3743 -- ($22k) not sold

Speightstown ($40k in 2005):

No foals sold at Keeneland

Tiznow ($30k in 2004):

Colt

15 -- $130k
731 -- $140k
1060 -- ($170k) not sold
1102 -- $130k
1224 -- ($170k) not sold
1239 -- ($75k) not sold
1392 -- $85k
1483 -- Out
1948 -- Out
1962 -- $280k
2010 -- $180k
2178 -- $6k
2293 -- $77k
2374 -- $170k
2525 -- $40k
2961 -- $13k
3150 -- Out
3815 -- Out
3824 -- $13k
3949 -- $50k

Filly

345 -- ($185k) not sold
578 -- $55k
772 -- $230k
868 -- $30k
892 -- ($140k) not sold
1122 -- $60k
1326 -- ($45k) not sold
1381 -- Out
1444 -- $290k
1473 -- Out
1612 -- $47k
1670 -- $50k
1694 -- $75k
1910 -- $27k
2007 -- $70k
2060 -- $65k
2076 -- ($47k) not sold
2161 -- $30k
2179 -- $85k
2195 -- ($30k) not sold
2314 -- Out
2377 -- $60k
2781 -- $37k
2821 -- $42k
2824 -- $11k
2886 -- $10k
3198 -- $10k
3675 -- $18k
3697 -- $52k
3961 -- $3,500

Victory Gallop (30K in 2004):

Colt

595 -- $200k
809 -- $225k
1313 -- $50k
1388 -- $250k
1661 -- $15k
2034 -- $140k
2205 -- Out
2230 -- $67k
2971 -- $22k
3007 -- $7k
3068 -- ($45k) not sold
3141 -- $30k
3251 -- $70k
3276 -- $82k
3294 -- ($27) not sold
3648 -- Out
3670 -- $22k
4529 -- $4,700
4710 -- ($34k) not sold

Filly

1229 -- Out
2167 -- $45k
2905 -- ($47k) not sold
3011 -- $47k
3230 -- $30k
3303 -- $18k
3418 -- $15k
3457 -- Out
3874 -- $17k
3940 -- $7k
4022 -- $75k
4039 -- $2,5k
4156 -- $18k
4364 -- Out
4407 -- $3,500
5048 -- $1,200