What are your opinions on Exploit? At first there was a lot of hype on this sire, but he did not fill the expectations. However when you look at his numbers, they look quite decent.
Do you have any facts about soundness issues, aptitude that he may pass as well as differences in gender in terms of quality of the offspring?.
Exploit
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Rokeby Forever
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Rokeby Forever
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Exploit is one of the few Storm Cats I think people gave up on too soon.
Storm Cat has been able to get a few decent sires and Exploit's dam is proven in getting some good breed to race sires as well as very good racehorses .. granted all the good sires were by Kris S.
Exploit still managed to get some nice using horses (Knights Templar being his best) and of his foals of racing age, he's at a respectable 70% starters/foals and 47% winners/foals (67% winners/starters). Those numbers are pretty much in line with My Turbulent Miss' other sons at stud (Prized, Reprized, Turbulent Kris*, and Turbulent Dancer) so there's no reason to think he wouldn't have been a very good $3k stallion in a regional market. He was overpriced at $15k in Kentucky.
My Turbulent Miss is an underrated dam... anyone who has an Exploit mare from a good family, don't give up on her too quickly.
My Turbulent Miss sons at stud:
Exploit (by Storm Cat) -- 75% starters, 57% winners/foals, 76% winners/starters
Prized (by Kris S.) -- 70% starters, 47% winners/foals, 67% winners/starters
Reprized (by Kris S.) -- 66% starters, 39% winners/foals, 60% winners/starters
Turbulent Kris* (by Kris S.) -- 84% starters, 56% winners/foals, 66% winners/starters
Turbulent Dancer** (by Gate Dancer) -- 33% starters, 17% winners/foals, 50% winners/starters
There are two other Kris S. sons -- Machikane Allegro in Japan and Knife Edge, a hurdler in the UK. MA is at stud, but I can't get hard numbers on him and I don't know what KE is doing now.
*deceased
** 6 foals, none born after 2002... not sure what happened to him.
Storm Cat has been able to get a few decent sires and Exploit's dam is proven in getting some good breed to race sires as well as very good racehorses .. granted all the good sires were by Kris S.
Exploit still managed to get some nice using horses (Knights Templar being his best) and of his foals of racing age, he's at a respectable 70% starters/foals and 47% winners/foals (67% winners/starters). Those numbers are pretty much in line with My Turbulent Miss' other sons at stud (Prized, Reprized, Turbulent Kris*, and Turbulent Dancer) so there's no reason to think he wouldn't have been a very good $3k stallion in a regional market. He was overpriced at $15k in Kentucky.
My Turbulent Miss is an underrated dam... anyone who has an Exploit mare from a good family, don't give up on her too quickly.
My Turbulent Miss sons at stud:
Exploit (by Storm Cat) -- 75% starters, 57% winners/foals, 76% winners/starters
Prized (by Kris S.) -- 70% starters, 47% winners/foals, 67% winners/starters
Reprized (by Kris S.) -- 66% starters, 39% winners/foals, 60% winners/starters
Turbulent Kris* (by Kris S.) -- 84% starters, 56% winners/foals, 66% winners/starters
Turbulent Dancer** (by Gate Dancer) -- 33% starters, 17% winners/foals, 50% winners/starters
There are two other Kris S. sons -- Machikane Allegro in Japan and Knife Edge, a hurdler in the UK. MA is at stud, but I can't get hard numbers on him and I don't know what KE is doing now.
*deceased
** 6 foals, none born after 2002... not sure what happened to him.
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Rokeby Forever
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Oh, please...how many hundreds of other Storm Cats come from great producing/siring families and wind up standing for $5,000? Storm Cat's offset knees, crappy temperment, and penchant for sons to sire high ass'ed horses that are straightlegged in the back with other physical faults should tell people that Storm Cat ain't Northern Dancer - and no matter what family a son comes from, chances are he'll drag down the mare's CI with a subpar AEI. Year after year, I see bluehen mares going to Storm Cat, foaling a fairly good colt, and seeing that colt become another disaster at stud.
If you're looking in the $15,000 range, why not consider a stallion like Mutakdimm? He doubles Northern Dancer (just like Storm Cat) and he sires some really athletic, correct foals that can run. And if not, how about a sire like Pioneering that's a steal at $5,000? Why do people keep running to breed to these Storm Cat stiffs?
If you're looking in the $15,000 range, why not consider a stallion like Mutakdimm? He doubles Northern Dancer (just like Storm Cat) and he sires some really athletic, correct foals that can run. And if not, how about a sire like Pioneering that's a steal at $5,000? Why do people keep running to breed to these Storm Cat stiffs?
You know, Rokeby, I'm trying to determine if you are just an inflammatory personality or a straight up troll looking for a fight. You appear to be the later from what I can see in your posting history (as short but numerous as it is -- hell, I don't even average 15 posts a day).
Yes, there are a lot of Storm Cat sons at stud and yes, a lot of them have huge gaps between their AEI and CIs. Big deal, more than 70% of the stallions out there have CIs higher than their AEIs. Tell me you aren't one of these idiots who live and die by one stat (especially THAT one).
The thing most detrimental to a Storm Cat son is the unreasonably high expectations placed upon them which means most of them stand for more than they should -- and still draw huge books. I'm no fan of Storm Cat progeny as potential sires -- IMO 90% of them should be gelded -- but the FACT is more often than not they can get the job done at every level.
Of the current top 100 stallions in earnings, 10 of them are sons of Storm Cat -- more than any other sire (Gone West looks to have the next highest number of sons on the list -- at 4).
16 of the top 100 2yo sires are Storm Cats (4 in the top 25).
12 of the top 100 sires by North American Earnings are Storm Cats (2 in the top 25).
8 of the top 100 first year sires (3 in the top 25).
11 of the top 100 second year sires (2 in the top 25).
19 of the top 100 third year sires (5 in the top 25).
11 of the top 100 Turf sires
8 of the top 100 by AEI (since you seem to be in love with that stat).
THOSE numbers are why people risk standing a Storm Cat and those numbers are why people breed to sons of Storm Cat.
As far as Exploit goes, he was doing his job, from a better than average sire producing MARE (to hell with her family -- how many other mares out there have as many sons at stud with the kind of numbers that My Turbulent Miss' boys have?) and by a proven sire of sires.
Yes, he was overpriced at $15k in Kentucky. That was not his fault, it was Taylor Made's (I'd make a comment about Taylor Made ALWAYS overpricing their stallions... but Byron's here and probably reading this
-- Let's just say I wouldn't have totally unloaded him, B, and Merry Christmas).
As for your assertion that the Storm Cats are high-assed, straight legged horses with offset knees -- 1) perfection is unattainable and 2) Exploit looks more like Prized, Reprized and Turbulent Kris than he does the typical Storm Cat son -- again, owing to My Turbulent Miss. I don't see Storm Cat when I look at Exploit, I see My Turbulent Miss. Just like I don't see Pulpit when I look at Tapit, I see Ruby Slippers and her son Rubiano -- which means I have more faith in him as a sire than I do most other Pukeit sons.
Yes, there are a lot of Storm Cat sons at stud and yes, a lot of them have huge gaps between their AEI and CIs. Big deal, more than 70% of the stallions out there have CIs higher than their AEIs. Tell me you aren't one of these idiots who live and die by one stat (especially THAT one).
The thing most detrimental to a Storm Cat son is the unreasonably high expectations placed upon them which means most of them stand for more than they should -- and still draw huge books. I'm no fan of Storm Cat progeny as potential sires -- IMO 90% of them should be gelded -- but the FACT is more often than not they can get the job done at every level.
Of the current top 100 stallions in earnings, 10 of them are sons of Storm Cat -- more than any other sire (Gone West looks to have the next highest number of sons on the list -- at 4).
16 of the top 100 2yo sires are Storm Cats (4 in the top 25).
12 of the top 100 sires by North American Earnings are Storm Cats (2 in the top 25).
8 of the top 100 first year sires (3 in the top 25).
11 of the top 100 second year sires (2 in the top 25).
19 of the top 100 third year sires (5 in the top 25).
11 of the top 100 Turf sires
8 of the top 100 by AEI (since you seem to be in love with that stat).
THOSE numbers are why people risk standing a Storm Cat and those numbers are why people breed to sons of Storm Cat.
As far as Exploit goes, he was doing his job, from a better than average sire producing MARE (to hell with her family -- how many other mares out there have as many sons at stud with the kind of numbers that My Turbulent Miss' boys have?) and by a proven sire of sires.
Yes, he was overpriced at $15k in Kentucky. That was not his fault, it was Taylor Made's (I'd make a comment about Taylor Made ALWAYS overpricing their stallions... but Byron's here and probably reading this
-- Let's just say I wouldn't have totally unloaded him, B, and Merry Christmas).
As for your assertion that the Storm Cats are high-assed, straight legged horses with offset knees -- 1) perfection is unattainable and 2) Exploit looks more like Prized, Reprized and Turbulent Kris than he does the typical Storm Cat son -- again, owing to My Turbulent Miss. I don't see Storm Cat when I look at Exploit, I see My Turbulent Miss. Just like I don't see Pulpit when I look at Tapit, I see Ruby Slippers and her son Rubiano -- which means I have more faith in him as a sire than I do most other Pukeit sons.
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Rokeby Forever
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Sam, I'm just stating facts....there seem to be "Storm Cat crazy" people out there that are convinced he's a duplicate of his Grandsire without looking at the numbers behind these sires. The breed is now more unsound than ever (c'mon, that's common knowledge), and the market is saturated with Storm Cat blood - it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.
Why is there such a high expectation these days of Storm Cat sons? The Seattle Slew line diminishes without AP Indy and Danzig's line diminishes without Danehill, but at least they sired a stallion of that stature...has Storm Cat? He's what...25 years old now and it hasn't happened?
They get the job done at every level? I'm looking at Giant's Causeway and the incredible book of mares he's gotten - 2 millionaires? Forestry's book of mares hasn't been too shabby - 1 millionaire (thanks to that UAE purse)? It sure says to me that he's not getting the job done at the high end.
In the middle, I see a lot of stallions like High Yield. He's at a "breed to race" price, but has he turned out to be a "breed to race" stallion?
At the bottom, I see stallions like Vision And Verse. He doesn't cost much ($5,000, I believe), but has he sired anything worth $5,000?
So, call me a troll if living an illusion is your bag....those that zero in on Storm Cat grandchildren at sales actually provide for better value on sounder "breed to race" horses. For $75,000, I'll take my chances on a Cozzene or a Runaway Groom as opposed to a Tale of the Cat.
Yep, I did write a lot of messages the last day or two....long weekend.
Why is there such a high expectation these days of Storm Cat sons? The Seattle Slew line diminishes without AP Indy and Danzig's line diminishes without Danehill, but at least they sired a stallion of that stature...has Storm Cat? He's what...25 years old now and it hasn't happened?
They get the job done at every level? I'm looking at Giant's Causeway and the incredible book of mares he's gotten - 2 millionaires? Forestry's book of mares hasn't been too shabby - 1 millionaire (thanks to that UAE purse)? It sure says to me that he's not getting the job done at the high end.
In the middle, I see a lot of stallions like High Yield. He's at a "breed to race" price, but has he turned out to be a "breed to race" stallion?
At the bottom, I see stallions like Vision And Verse. He doesn't cost much ($5,000, I believe), but has he sired anything worth $5,000?
So, call me a troll if living an illusion is your bag....those that zero in on Storm Cat grandchildren at sales actually provide for better value on sounder "breed to race" horses. For $75,000, I'll take my chances on a Cozzene or a Runaway Groom as opposed to a Tale of the Cat.
Yep, I did write a lot of messages the last day or two....long weekend.
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Rokeby Forever
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angelsprite
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Just letting everyone know, I'm not a straigh-up troll. I'm not even a troll in disguise. If we're putting limits on an acceptable numbers of posts, I need to know about it, so I won't be considered a troll.
Sam,
that was a really brilliant post and there's not much to add to it, except this and this is just my opinion.
With regard to the need for gelding. I'm of the opinion that more horses should be left horses and left off the steroids while racing, and given a chance at stud, to see which ones will rise from the pit to stand head and shoulders above the others. By the same token, I think most of the experimentation should be done by home based trainers, not by the factory in KY, so the grandsons and granddaughters of the high priced progenitor run all over the country and we really see which stallions are producing stout, hard knocking racehorses, not the hothouse plants whose owners can afford the nomination fees for a hundred foals to the breeders cup, to see which single one might be able to run up there, leaving out all the horses that might beat them if they were in the race. But, it's a new age in racing and I guess we have to work within the system as it exists today.
Sam,
that was a really brilliant post and there's not much to add to it, except this and this is just my opinion.
With regard to the need for gelding. I'm of the opinion that more horses should be left horses and left off the steroids while racing, and given a chance at stud, to see which ones will rise from the pit to stand head and shoulders above the others. By the same token, I think most of the experimentation should be done by home based trainers, not by the factory in KY, so the grandsons and granddaughters of the high priced progenitor run all over the country and we really see which stallions are producing stout, hard knocking racehorses, not the hothouse plants whose owners can afford the nomination fees for a hundred foals to the breeders cup, to see which single one might be able to run up there, leaving out all the horses that might beat them if they were in the race. But, it's a new age in racing and I guess we have to work within the system as it exists today.
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Rokeby Forever
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Is Raging Fever still standing stud? OK, how about Mountain Cat? Oh wait...he got shipped off to Turkey. Boy, it's getting tough keeping track!
Yep, I'll agree Sam did a fine job posting those stats and he's entitled to his opinion. But, are these numbers at all impressive when you consider the amount of Storm Cat sons at stud? Only 8 in the top 100 in AEI? Only 8??? Considering the mares these stallions are by???
8 out of the top 100 first year sires...how many Storm Cat first year sires are there?
Gone West has 4 top earners and Storm Cat has 10...how many Storm Cat sons are out there compared to Gone West sons?
I'm not arguing with the numbers....I'm just saying that there's strength in numbers, don't you agree? I thought they'd be better based on all the Storm Cats out there.
Yep, I'll agree Sam did a fine job posting those stats and he's entitled to his opinion. But, are these numbers at all impressive when you consider the amount of Storm Cat sons at stud? Only 8 in the top 100 in AEI? Only 8??? Considering the mares these stallions are by???
8 out of the top 100 first year sires...how many Storm Cat first year sires are there?
Gone West has 4 top earners and Storm Cat has 10...how many Storm Cat sons are out there compared to Gone West sons?
I'm not arguing with the numbers....I'm just saying that there's strength in numbers, don't you agree? I thought they'd be better based on all the Storm Cats out there.
Rokeby Forever wrote:Sam, I'm just stating facts
You're stating opinion and proclaiming it fact.
Rokeby Forever wrote:The breed is now more unsound than ever (c'mon, that's common knowledge)
In your opinion. It is not common knowledge. It's not even scientifically provable. There are far more external influences for why horses make fewer starts today than they did 30 years ago, and a lot of them are financial in their root. I find incredibly difficult to believe the breed is "unsound" when steeplechasers come from the same stock, run farther OVER JUMPS and carry more weight well into their teens. It's not the horse, it's the idiots in control of the horse. It's just easier to blame the horse.
Rokeby Forever wrote:and the market is saturated with Storm Cat blood - it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.
Oh please don't tell me you are about to go on a "Storm Cat is the root of all unsoundness" rant. I don't think we could handle another person spouting unscientific rhetoric. We've already weathered Ballymoss' idiocy over Turn-To and Louis' constant barrage of Phalaris posts.
Rokeby Forever wrote:Why is there such a high expectation these days of Storm Cat sons? The Seattle Slew line diminishes without AP Indy and Danzig's line diminishes without Danehill, but at least they sired a stallion of that stature...has Storm Cat? He's what...25 years old now and it hasn't happened?
What's your point? Dynaformer is in his late 20s, is recognized as a top sire and still doesn't have a Danehill or A.P. Indy-esque son. Neither does Kris S., Rahy, Theatrical, Red Ransom, Pleasant Colony, Broad Brush etc. I'd take a mare by any of those boys any day, though and most of them have really good using sons at stud as well.
Rokeby Forever wrote:They get the job done at every level? I'm looking at Giant's Causeway and the incredible book of mares he's gotten - 2 millionaires?
So now you are basing success on the number of millionaires a horse sires? Do you know how many 'incredible mares' Mr. Prospector was bred to and didn't get a millionaire? Northern Dancer? Saddler's Wells?
Rokeby Forever wrote:In the middle, I see a lot of stallions like High Yield. He's at a "breed to race" price, but has he turned out to be a "breed to race" stallion?
High Yield is currently ranked 10th on the 3rd crop sires list with 295 horses of racing age (including 91 2yos), 190 starters (64%), 121 winners (41% wnrs/foals, 64% wnrs/strs) and over $5.1m in progeny earnings; just shy of $30k average earnings per starter.
Yes, I'd say those are respectable numbers for a $4k breed to race sire (his current stud fee). Unfortunately he was overpriced at $15k. He was at Ashford, what do you expect?
Fusaichi Pegasus isn't a failure, he's just a bad gamble at his current stud fee. He'd have very good numbers if he were a $10k stallion. Same with Giant's Causeway. What do all three have in common? They all stand/stood at Ashford.
Rokeby Forever wrote:At the bottom, I see stallions like Vision And Verse. He doesn't cost much ($5,000, I believe), but has he sired anything worth $5,000?
Vision And Verse is only in his second year, was a horse who didn't develop until he was three (the age of his current oldest crop) and was bred to a lot of mares who are not known for producing precocious 2yo winners. You were expecting him to come out throwing darts? You need to understand the horse a little more if you were.
He's currently ranked 24th on the Sophomore sires list with 115 foals of racing age (including 53 2yos), 67 starters (58%), 34 winners (30% wnrs/foals, 51% wnrs/strs) and average earnings per starter of just under $20k.
That's not bad for a second year sire who no one should be expecting precocious 2yos from. With only two crops on the ground, it's premature to call him a failure.
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Rokeby Forever
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Hi, Sam. I'm not going to preach to the choir about the Coolmore/Ashford baby factory....I'm glad we agree on at least one thing! *offers to shake hands*
I'll agree that horsemanship has pretty much gone by the wayside and that several successful outfits train out of a medicine cabinet, but look at the size of the average Thoroughbred today compared to 30 years ago. Remember when Forego was called a "Monster" and Ruffian was considered a "Giant?" Look at the size of today's horses, how much they weigh, and that their legs really haven't evolved in proportion - do the physics. I'm NOT saying that Storm Cat is to blame, but how long did he stay sound? I won't rant about the Unbridled line and what his feet woes have done to the breed, but horses are more unsound than ever before. How many race 50 times in a career, even the lesser bred?
You mentioned a lot of my favorite sires (excluding Cozzene and Runaway Groom), and yes, they're all good and offer value vs stud fee. The difference is that their sons aren't immediately offered top mares at high stud fees with the hope that the next Northern Dancer has been reborn. Fantastic Light is a Rahy...wouldn't he be standing for $100,000 if he were a Storm Cat?
Call me silly, but I still think money won means something...especially with today's inflated purses. ($50,000 is now a Maiden Special Weight...it used to be a small Stake in New York).
And, I have to agree with you on Fu Peg. With absolutely no mare selection (he would have been bred to a sheep as long as the owner cut a $125,000 check), his results were Coolmore/Ashford predictible. However, he was a very high strung horse (not uncommon of Mr Ps) and wasn't the soundest of critters (remember when he wore fronts in the Wood Memorial? They went on for a reason). I'm not sure that's the stuff a $125,000 stallion is made of, anyway. Based on raw numbers, even $65,000 to too high this year - but with the right type of mare, he can probably sire a nice horse.
Yep, Vision And Verse was a typical Mott late developer, but I don't see many sons of Storm Cat siring late developers. Take Giant's Causeway - he's got a pretty good % of two year olds hitting the track, but if you take the number that don't race at 2, only about 1/3 ever make it to the races...so if they don't race early, chances are that they won't race at all. Take a look and see if you agree. One might think that Giant's Causeways are late developers, but Sharmardal and First Samurai weren't....and I'd argue that they're two of his best sons, wouldn't you?
I'll agree that horsemanship has pretty much gone by the wayside and that several successful outfits train out of a medicine cabinet, but look at the size of the average Thoroughbred today compared to 30 years ago. Remember when Forego was called a "Monster" and Ruffian was considered a "Giant?" Look at the size of today's horses, how much they weigh, and that their legs really haven't evolved in proportion - do the physics. I'm NOT saying that Storm Cat is to blame, but how long did he stay sound? I won't rant about the Unbridled line and what his feet woes have done to the breed, but horses are more unsound than ever before. How many race 50 times in a career, even the lesser bred?
You mentioned a lot of my favorite sires (excluding Cozzene and Runaway Groom), and yes, they're all good and offer value vs stud fee. The difference is that their sons aren't immediately offered top mares at high stud fees with the hope that the next Northern Dancer has been reborn. Fantastic Light is a Rahy...wouldn't he be standing for $100,000 if he were a Storm Cat?
Call me silly, but I still think money won means something...especially with today's inflated purses. ($50,000 is now a Maiden Special Weight...it used to be a small Stake in New York).
And, I have to agree with you on Fu Peg. With absolutely no mare selection (he would have been bred to a sheep as long as the owner cut a $125,000 check), his results were Coolmore/Ashford predictible. However, he was a very high strung horse (not uncommon of Mr Ps) and wasn't the soundest of critters (remember when he wore fronts in the Wood Memorial? They went on for a reason). I'm not sure that's the stuff a $125,000 stallion is made of, anyway. Based on raw numbers, even $65,000 to too high this year - but with the right type of mare, he can probably sire a nice horse.
Yep, Vision And Verse was a typical Mott late developer, but I don't see many sons of Storm Cat siring late developers. Take Giant's Causeway - he's got a pretty good % of two year olds hitting the track, but if you take the number that don't race at 2, only about 1/3 ever make it to the races...so if they don't race early, chances are that they won't race at all. Take a look and see if you agree. One might think that Giant's Causeways are late developers, but Sharmardal and First Samurai weren't....and I'd argue that they're two of his best sons, wouldn't you?