I know at the face of it you think 'what in the world is gotten into him!! there goes BDW again with one of his off landish posts!!"
but.. because of the well.. Break.. from this site, i've been forced to hit up Wikipedia. Alot. And I came to the conclusion that the kentucky Derby, Stallion wise, is as worthless as a Grade 3.
Well.. Take out fu Peg, who as long as he would have shown he can walk he would have been given blue blood mares at stud with that pedigree, smarty jones who won 7 straight races, 3 of them grade 1's, sunday Silence who is probably the most successful, at least recently, sire in Japan until his death, Unbridled, who again, with his pedigree, had every reason to be thrown the best mares (same can really be said about Sunday silence if you ask me, but no one is), the triple crown winners (you might want to take Affirmed out of that if you want to make a strong argument) and Pleasant Colony, and it's a whose NOT of the breeding world.
the going rate for a kentucky Derby win seems to be 15k. maybe a little under.
Giacomo?
Go for Gin?
Sea Hero?
lol, Lil E Tee?
Thunder Gulch? (ah.... I am still holding out hope)
Monarchos?
Real Quiet?
Silver Charm?
and it gets worse if you go back. a lot worse.
I consider Ferdinand to be the biggest flop at stud ever.
Strike the Gold, Spend a Buck had a couple of runners.. literarly.
this is no down on the horses. not in the least bit.
moreso.. it begs the question... in a world, or better yet a sport, ran by the backstrings that is breeding, just how important really is the kenducky derby?
If you had an unreal colt, that could blow the socks off of anything on the turf or dirt, would you rather win the derby or the arc if you owned him?
It seems you are better off retiring a colt after an impressive 2YO BC Juve win than trying to win the KD. Vindication, Joannesburg and so on. they are given better mares or so it seems, because they are considered to be hotter stallions, because the big win they received is more impressive.
I really don't know if I am asking a question or making a statement. however you would think that the countries most important race would be well... important.
Is there a more worthless Grade 1 then the Kentucky Derby?
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bdw0617
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Is there a more worthless Grade 1 then the Kentucky Derby?
"When the solution is simple, God is answering.”
- Einstein
- Einstein
Well it DOES have a $2 million purse. You didn't have Funny Cide on your list 
The Derby is a horse race. It is a classic. It does look good on a sire's resume. It also looks good on the Derby Winner's sire's resume.
It doesn't alter the horse or his pedigree. Some of the horses you list were shipped out before they really had a chance to show anything as a sire. That is not the fault of the Derby win.. it is the fault of the way the industry has separated. Breeding Thoroughbreds is no longer what it once was, a quest for breeding quality race winners. It is a separate industry, commercialized, whose aim by a lot of breeders is simply to breed a horse they can make money on. Stallions are sold if it is profitable to do so.
The Derby is a horse race. It is a classic. It does look good on a sire's resume. It also looks good on the Derby Winner's sire's resume.
It doesn't alter the horse or his pedigree. Some of the horses you list were shipped out before they really had a chance to show anything as a sire. That is not the fault of the Derby win.. it is the fault of the way the industry has separated. Breeding Thoroughbreds is no longer what it once was, a quest for breeding quality race winners. It is a separate industry, commercialized, whose aim by a lot of breeders is simply to breed a horse they can make money on. Stallions are sold if it is profitable to do so.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Ky Derby
It may be valid to point out the weakness of just the Derby winners but I like to view the Derby from a little broader perspective. Racing luck at that stage too often decides the winner. Hugh fields, crowds, travel, changes in routine, jockey mistakes have all taken their toll.
On a broader view, getting to the KY Derby and running often spells great success historically from the breeding shed. Look at the 57 Derby, Round Table and Bold Ruler ran 3rd and 4th if I remember. 90 had Unbridled, Summer Squall and Pleasant Tap. Almost every year when you review the old fields you will find great horses that ran but did not win. Just gettng to the dance seems to have historically been a promise of future success at stud.
On a broader view, getting to the KY Derby and running often spells great success historically from the breeding shed. Look at the 57 Derby, Round Table and Bold Ruler ran 3rd and 4th if I remember. 90 had Unbridled, Summer Squall and Pleasant Tap. Almost every year when you review the old fields you will find great horses that ran but did not win. Just gettng to the dance seems to have historically been a promise of future success at stud.
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pfrsue
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The winning fillies haven't done particularly well out of it either. Genuine Risk could scarcely get into foal, and as far as I remember, Winning Colors never produced much. I'm not sure about Regret.
Still, there are some very notable stallions that won the Derby: Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, Secretariat come to mind first. And I would venture to guess that there aren't a lot of Grade 1 races that are top heavy in the winners column with horses that went on to become very successful sires. After all, very successful sires are few and far between anyway.
Still, there are some very notable stallions that won the Derby: Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, Secretariat come to mind first. And I would venture to guess that there aren't a lot of Grade 1 races that are top heavy in the winners column with horses that went on to become very successful sires. After all, very successful sires are few and far between anyway.
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LaTroienne
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Let's not forget that for quite some time, our industry was/is geared toward speed and a lot of the winners of the Derby were looked upon as stamina influences.
Also, even races that are billed as "stallion races" come up with a lot of winners who don't excel in the shed.
Considering the low percentage of actual successful stallions in the industry, the derby isn't bad at producing them.
I'd certainly say the legacies of Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, Secretariat, Unbridled, Sunday Silence, Pleasant Colony, Affirmed, etc. whether it be as sire of sires or broodmare sires are all very comparable to any other race.
Also, even races that are billed as "stallion races" come up with a lot of winners who don't excel in the shed.
Considering the low percentage of actual successful stallions in the industry, the derby isn't bad at producing them.
I'd certainly say the legacies of Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, Secretariat, Unbridled, Sunday Silence, Pleasant Colony, Affirmed, etc. whether it be as sire of sires or broodmare sires are all very comparable to any other race.
Don't be so humble - you are not that great.
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fastappy
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Monarchos stands for $7,500, Real Quiet for $5,000, Go For Gin for $4,000, and Grindstone for $3,500 support the position that the Kentucky Derby is increasingly less relevant, in itself, in producing success in the breeding shed. We don't know what War Emblem would have done, but he was basically a one hit wonder of Our Emblem.
The Derby is still the greatest race in terms of notoriety, and is the goal of most trainers and owners. I think in itself it does not hold the breeding shed value it once did. The derby and breeding in general has become so commercialized and breeders automatically fall into the hype that a derby horse is significantly more valuable as a breeding animal based on one classic. In reality there are so many more racing venues (the derby trail) and once a (usually three year old) a horse wins a major race he is automatically given stallion status and spun by the large farms.
As long as buyers are willing to snap up the yearlings from unproven so called sires, and breeders are not willing to truly scrutinize the pedigrees & race records the trend will continue.
The Derby is still the greatest race in terms of notoriety, and is the goal of most trainers and owners. I think in itself it does not hold the breeding shed value it once did. The derby and breeding in general has become so commercialized and breeders automatically fall into the hype that a derby horse is significantly more valuable as a breeding animal based on one classic. In reality there are so many more racing venues (the derby trail) and once a (usually three year old) a horse wins a major race he is automatically given stallion status and spun by the large farms.
As long as buyers are willing to snap up the yearlings from unproven so called sires, and breeders are not willing to truly scrutinize the pedigrees & race records the trend will continue.
Real Quiet was at a distinct disadvantage when retired due to the time and his conformation.
Go for Gin had about as uncommercial a pedigree as one could get. He's also a complete stamina influence. Something that people didn't want.
Grindstone was always the "other" Unbridled to Unbridled's Song. Unbridled's Song had the speed and conformation people wanted, while Grindstone's physical turned off a lot. Let's not forget he's also produced a Classic winner, himself.
Monarchos started off at 25k I believe. He had an abbreviated career and was by a stallion who was standing around for the same amount at the time and was still a "wait and see" stallion.
In my mind, each one of these stallions had legitimate reasons for not being well received/accepted.
But again, if only 10% of stallions truly make it beyond marginal success, how many Derby winners would you like to see be acclaimed as good to great stallions?
Go for Gin had about as uncommercial a pedigree as one could get. He's also a complete stamina influence. Something that people didn't want.
Grindstone was always the "other" Unbridled to Unbridled's Song. Unbridled's Song had the speed and conformation people wanted, while Grindstone's physical turned off a lot. Let's not forget he's also produced a Classic winner, himself.
Monarchos started off at 25k I believe. He had an abbreviated career and was by a stallion who was standing around for the same amount at the time and was still a "wait and see" stallion.
In my mind, each one of these stallions had legitimate reasons for not being well received/accepted.
But again, if only 10% of stallions truly make it beyond marginal success, how many Derby winners would you like to see be acclaimed as good to great stallions?
Don't be so humble - you are not that great.
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fastappy
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If one in ten is the standard then I think that speaks to the significance or lack of significance of the derby. The average success rate for stallions in general may be 10-15 %, but is that an acceptable standard for a horse given the exhaulted status that accompanies the winning of the derby? I think in general we give the derby a greater signifcance and have higher expectations of a derby winner than "run of the mill" odds at success.
The game changes and I think that the race is less relevant. The only reason why 10% is acceptable is because of the hype & commercialization of stallions, and buyers willing to put their hopes on yearlings by unproven stallions.
Was the derby more relevant than say 20 years ago? I don't know, but there seems to be more marinal (derby trail) runners and fewer standouts, more horses retired earlier automatically given inflated sires fees, much larger books, and much more hype.
The game changes and I think that the race is less relevant. The only reason why 10% is acceptable is because of the hype & commercialization of stallions, and buyers willing to put their hopes on yearlings by unproven stallions.
Was the derby more relevant than say 20 years ago? I don't know, but there seems to be more marinal (derby trail) runners and fewer standouts, more horses retired earlier automatically given inflated sires fees, much larger books, and much more hype.
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Rokeby Forever
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The Hopeful Stakes is now more of a breeders' race than the KY Derby. It's Grade 1, earlier, a shorter distance, and when the winner breaks down early, the "unlimited potential" label gets attached.
Remember when the Hopeful Stakes was a preview of KY Derby prospects? Affirmed is the last Hopeful Stakes winner to win the KY Derby - 30 years ago.
When you watch the Hopeful Stakes this weekend, just remember - 30 years since a winner won the Derby.
Sad.
Remember when the Hopeful Stakes was a preview of KY Derby prospects? Affirmed is the last Hopeful Stakes winner to win the KY Derby - 30 years ago.
When you watch the Hopeful Stakes this weekend, just remember - 30 years since a winner won the Derby.
Sad.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
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fastappy
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[quote="griff"]How does a stallion become a Triple Crown winner with out winning the derby.
griff[/quote]
Exactly, the Kentucky Derby in itself is less significant, many have won it but it's been 29 years and counting since one has went on to win the triple crown. They have past the derby test, some have went on to capture the 2nd jewel but unable to take it to the elite level of the triple crown. Some have been just good 3 year olds, which in itself speaks to needing a little more than just a derby win.
griff[/quote]
Exactly, the Kentucky Derby in itself is less significant, many have won it but it's been 29 years and counting since one has went on to win the triple crown. They have past the derby test, some have went on to capture the 2nd jewel but unable to take it to the elite level of the triple crown. Some have been just good 3 year olds, which in itself speaks to needing a little more than just a derby win.
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fastappy
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[quote="dray33"]Are you saying the Kentucky Derby winners historically have turned out to be poor sires? Are you saying the Derby should be a Grade 3? I don't think they are related.[/quote]
Here is a list of the top 30 sires in 2007. There is not a derby winner among them. I think that is significant, don't you? At 31st is Thunder Gulch who has 4% stakes winners and 11% wins from starts.
No, I definitely don't believe the Derby should be a G3, as I've stated that it is the greatest race in terms of notoriety and the aspiration for most owners and trainers.
2007 Leading Sires - Includes racing results for Northern Hemisphere through August 29, 2007. Earnings exclude Japan and Hong Kong.
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Rank Stallion (YOB,Sire) Standing Farm 2007
Stud Fee Rnrs/
Wnrs SWs/
SWins GSWs/
G1SW Chief Earner, Earnings 2007
Earnings
1 A.P. INDY (1989, Seattle Slew), Lane's End, KY $300,000 152/63 16/24 8/1 Rags to Riches, $1,290,028 $7,275,719
2 SMART STRIKE (1992, Mr. Prospector), Lane's End, KY $75,000 165/69 14/20 7/2 Curlin, $1,952,800 $6,891,541
3 DISTORTED HUMOR (1993, Forty Niner), WinStar Farm, KY $225,000 196/86 17/23 8/4 Any Given Saturday, $900,000 $6,260,349
4 GIANT'S CAUSEWAY (1997, Storm Cat), Ashford Stud, KY N/A 221/84 10/14 8/1 Red Giant, $786,720 $6,176,659
5 LANGFUHR (1992, Danzig), Lane's End, KY $25,000 225/106 10/14 3/2 Jambalaya, $979,421 $5,373,347
6 ROYAL ACADEMY (1987, Nijinsky II), Ashford Stud, KY $15,000 221/85 15/18 5/0 Bullish Luck, $600,000 $5,281,164
7 STREET CRY (IRE) (1998, Machiavellian), Darley, KY $50,000 64/23 9/16 6/1 Street Sense, $2,880,000 $5,018,505
8 MR. GREELEY (1992, Gone West), Gainesway, KY $75,000 183/76 7/10 4/3 Finsceal Beo, $821,721 $4,246,799
9 STORMY ATLANTIC (1994, Storm Cat), Hill 'n' Dale Farms, KY $30,000 212/98 10/13 4/1 Saskawea, $284,778 $4,232,199
10 LEMON DROP KID (1996, Kingmambo), Lane's End, KY $20,000 146/62 9/14 3/2 Christmas Kid, $554,500 $4,228,362
11 BROKEN VOW (1997, Unbridled), Pin Oak Stud, KY $25,000 144/80 6/8 2/1 Unbridled Belle, $700,000 $4,059,512
12 UNBRIDLED'S SONG (1993, Unbridled), Taylor Made Stallions, KY $200,000 141/60 8/9 4/2 Octave, $677,234 $3,953,546
13 PULPIT (1994, A.P. Indy), Claiborne Farm, KY $80,000 131/62 8/14 5/2 Corinthian, $609,173 $3,943,902
14 KINGMAMBO (1990, Mr. Prospector), Lane's End, KY N/A 157/54 7/10 5/2 Student Council, $741,755 $3,820,265
15 DYNAFORMER (1985, Roberto), Three Chimneys Farms, KY $150,000 165/65 7/9 2/0 Lucarno, $423,476 $3,806,220
16 TALE OF THE CAT (1994, Storm Cat), Ashford Stud, KY $37,500 233/103 8/8 1/0 Ashley's Kitty, $167,878 $3,724,956
17 PLEASANT TAP (1987, Pleasant Colony), Lane's End, KY $15,000 110/45 4/5 3/2 Premium Tap, $1,218,662 $3,714,879
18 MARIA'S MON (1993, Wavering Monarch), Pin Oak Stud, KY $60,000 165/77 7/9 3/0 Wait a While, $246,000 $3,684,784
19 GRAND SLAM (1995, Gone West), Ashford Stud, KY $35,000 237/98 8/9 2/0 Ruby's Grand Slam, $151,910 $3,478,511
20 SILVER DEPUTY (1985, Deputy Minister), Brookdale Farm, KY $30,000 163/69 7/7 3/0 Spring At Last, $680,000 $3,463,414
21 MUTAKDDIM (1991, Seeking the Gold), Hill 'n' Dale Farms, KY $12,500 187/96 4/4 0/0 Lady Attack, $100,878 $3,458,353
22 AWESOME AGAIN (1994, Deputy Minister), Adena Springs Kentucky $150,000 140/56 8/10 3/2 Awesome Gem, $432,400 $3,432,576
23 NOT FOR LOVE (1990, Mr. Prospector), Northview Stallion Station, MD $25,000 154/75 4/7 1/0 Smart and Fancy, $257,513 $3,367,069
24 MORE THAN READY (1997, Southern Halo), Vinery, KY $40,000 178/87 7/11 1/0 Ready's Image, $201,422 $3,347,641
25 RAHY (1985, Blushing Groom), Three Chimneys Farms, KY $60,000 142/62 8/10 3/0 Lewis Michael, $323,700 $3,336,698
26 CHEROKEE RUN (1990, Runaway Groom), Darley, KY $40,000 155/77 6/8 3/0 Zanjero, $658,717 $3,303,124
27 CATIENUS (1994, Storm Cat), Highcliff Farm, NY $7,500 147/90 6/9 1/1 Precious Kitten, $560,000 $3,300,217
28 STORM CAT (1983, Storm Bird), Overbrook Farm, KY $500,000 118/44 6/10 3/1 After Market, $636,725 $3,156,060
29 HOLY BULL (1991, Great Above), Darley, KY $15,000 131/60 5/7 2/1 Flashy Bull, $635,063 $3,154,244
30 JOHANNESBURG (1999, Hennessy), Ashford Stud, KY $65,000 127/46 6/10 5/1 Scat Daddy, $826,500 $3,125,143
31 THUNDER GULCH (1992, Gulch), Ashford Stud, KY $30,000 202/73 8/9 3/1 Balance, $418,332 $3,116,311
Here is a list of the top 30 sires in 2007. There is not a derby winner among them. I think that is significant, don't you? At 31st is Thunder Gulch who has 4% stakes winners and 11% wins from starts.
No, I definitely don't believe the Derby should be a G3, as I've stated that it is the greatest race in terms of notoriety and the aspiration for most owners and trainers.
2007 Leading Sires - Includes racing results for Northern Hemisphere through August 29, 2007. Earnings exclude Japan and Hong Kong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank Stallion (YOB,Sire) Standing Farm 2007
Stud Fee Rnrs/
Wnrs SWs/
SWins GSWs/
G1SW Chief Earner, Earnings 2007
Earnings
1 A.P. INDY (1989, Seattle Slew), Lane's End, KY $300,000 152/63 16/24 8/1 Rags to Riches, $1,290,028 $7,275,719
2 SMART STRIKE (1992, Mr. Prospector), Lane's End, KY $75,000 165/69 14/20 7/2 Curlin, $1,952,800 $6,891,541
3 DISTORTED HUMOR (1993, Forty Niner), WinStar Farm, KY $225,000 196/86 17/23 8/4 Any Given Saturday, $900,000 $6,260,349
4 GIANT'S CAUSEWAY (1997, Storm Cat), Ashford Stud, KY N/A 221/84 10/14 8/1 Red Giant, $786,720 $6,176,659
5 LANGFUHR (1992, Danzig), Lane's End, KY $25,000 225/106 10/14 3/2 Jambalaya, $979,421 $5,373,347
6 ROYAL ACADEMY (1987, Nijinsky II), Ashford Stud, KY $15,000 221/85 15/18 5/0 Bullish Luck, $600,000 $5,281,164
7 STREET CRY (IRE) (1998, Machiavellian), Darley, KY $50,000 64/23 9/16 6/1 Street Sense, $2,880,000 $5,018,505
8 MR. GREELEY (1992, Gone West), Gainesway, KY $75,000 183/76 7/10 4/3 Finsceal Beo, $821,721 $4,246,799
9 STORMY ATLANTIC (1994, Storm Cat), Hill 'n' Dale Farms, KY $30,000 212/98 10/13 4/1 Saskawea, $284,778 $4,232,199
10 LEMON DROP KID (1996, Kingmambo), Lane's End, KY $20,000 146/62 9/14 3/2 Christmas Kid, $554,500 $4,228,362
11 BROKEN VOW (1997, Unbridled), Pin Oak Stud, KY $25,000 144/80 6/8 2/1 Unbridled Belle, $700,000 $4,059,512
12 UNBRIDLED'S SONG (1993, Unbridled), Taylor Made Stallions, KY $200,000 141/60 8/9 4/2 Octave, $677,234 $3,953,546
13 PULPIT (1994, A.P. Indy), Claiborne Farm, KY $80,000 131/62 8/14 5/2 Corinthian, $609,173 $3,943,902
14 KINGMAMBO (1990, Mr. Prospector), Lane's End, KY N/A 157/54 7/10 5/2 Student Council, $741,755 $3,820,265
15 DYNAFORMER (1985, Roberto), Three Chimneys Farms, KY $150,000 165/65 7/9 2/0 Lucarno, $423,476 $3,806,220
16 TALE OF THE CAT (1994, Storm Cat), Ashford Stud, KY $37,500 233/103 8/8 1/0 Ashley's Kitty, $167,878 $3,724,956
17 PLEASANT TAP (1987, Pleasant Colony), Lane's End, KY $15,000 110/45 4/5 3/2 Premium Tap, $1,218,662 $3,714,879
18 MARIA'S MON (1993, Wavering Monarch), Pin Oak Stud, KY $60,000 165/77 7/9 3/0 Wait a While, $246,000 $3,684,784
19 GRAND SLAM (1995, Gone West), Ashford Stud, KY $35,000 237/98 8/9 2/0 Ruby's Grand Slam, $151,910 $3,478,511
20 SILVER DEPUTY (1985, Deputy Minister), Brookdale Farm, KY $30,000 163/69 7/7 3/0 Spring At Last, $680,000 $3,463,414
21 MUTAKDDIM (1991, Seeking the Gold), Hill 'n' Dale Farms, KY $12,500 187/96 4/4 0/0 Lady Attack, $100,878 $3,458,353
22 AWESOME AGAIN (1994, Deputy Minister), Adena Springs Kentucky $150,000 140/56 8/10 3/2 Awesome Gem, $432,400 $3,432,576
23 NOT FOR LOVE (1990, Mr. Prospector), Northview Stallion Station, MD $25,000 154/75 4/7 1/0 Smart and Fancy, $257,513 $3,367,069
24 MORE THAN READY (1997, Southern Halo), Vinery, KY $40,000 178/87 7/11 1/0 Ready's Image, $201,422 $3,347,641
25 RAHY (1985, Blushing Groom), Three Chimneys Farms, KY $60,000 142/62 8/10 3/0 Lewis Michael, $323,700 $3,336,698
26 CHEROKEE RUN (1990, Runaway Groom), Darley, KY $40,000 155/77 6/8 3/0 Zanjero, $658,717 $3,303,124
27 CATIENUS (1994, Storm Cat), Highcliff Farm, NY $7,500 147/90 6/9 1/1 Precious Kitten, $560,000 $3,300,217
28 STORM CAT (1983, Storm Bird), Overbrook Farm, KY $500,000 118/44 6/10 3/1 After Market, $636,725 $3,156,060
29 HOLY BULL (1991, Great Above), Darley, KY $15,000 131/60 5/7 2/1 Flashy Bull, $635,063 $3,154,244
30 JOHANNESBURG (1999, Hennessy), Ashford Stud, KY $65,000 127/46 6/10 5/1 Scat Daddy, $826,500 $3,125,143
31 THUNDER GULCH (1992, Gulch), Ashford Stud, KY $30,000 202/73 8/9 3/1 Balance, $418,332 $3,116,311