Bellamy Road
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Bellamy Road
Has anyone seen or have any yearlings by Bellamy Road? Is he one worth taking a chance on or is he just another over priced, unproven stallion? What type of mare would best cross with him?
Re: Bellamy Road
barbfool wrote:What type of mare would best cross with him?
I wrote an article on the subject of Bellamy Road's pedigree and that question. You can find it here:
http://www.venturageoscore.com/BellamyRoad.html
"What happened is merely a sample of what might have happened, weighted by probability."
http://www.venturageoscore.com/
http://www.venturageoscore.com/
You're welcome Patuxet. And thanks for the compliment.
"What happened is merely a sample of what might have happened, weighted by probability."
http://www.venturageoscore.com/
http://www.venturageoscore.com/
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Bill from WA
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Matchemforever
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Read the article, got a couple questions, especially in terms of mares and relationships in the pedigrees.
Bringing in some information I posted on another forum, if you look at Man O' War's predigree, you get an astonishing (I think) amount of the mare Pocohontas in his pedigree. (Plus a few others) And while I don't think Man O' War was linebred, is it possible with that concentration in the background it helped him be as influential as he was, given his lack of access to the good mares of the time? (Riddle using him a private stallion meant we'll never know what he could really have done, IMHO)
Tomahawk, who I think is the sire of Hasting's dam, Cinderella, was by King Tom who was out of Pocahontas.
Tomahawk’s dam, Mincemeat, was by Sweetmeat, the sire of Macaroni. Sweetmeat was out of Lollypop. Ostina, the mare whose lines appear twice in Lady Langdon, dam of Hampton (Mahubah's pedigree) via herself and her full brother, is here in the dam line of Tomahawk.
(Lanercost and Ostina, full brother and sister and IMHO, may have a lot to do with Hampton's ability in the stud. He's probably more known in sport horse circles for the Dark Ronald line of horses)
Lollypop appears again in Cinderella’s dam, Manna, in the dam line. Manna’s sire, Brown Bread, is from the Agnes dam line. Hastings had two prominent mares in his pedigree, Pocohontas and Agness, in the dam line.
Fairy Gold, Fair Play’s dam, sire brings back in Pocohontas.
Dame Masham, dam of Fairy Gold, dam line is Hermit/Newminster, Newminster also the sire of Lord Clifton, sire of Hampton.
To Man O' War:
Mahubah, dam of Man O’ War, her sire Rock Sand had two crosses of Pocohontas via his sire and Rock Sand’s dam brought in Pocohantas twice.
Mahubah’s dam, Merry Token, brings in Hampton and Pochontas again, at least twice, through Merry Hampton, then the mare Queen Mary appears in Merry Hamptons sire and dam line plus via Hampton there’s Lanercost and Ostina, full brother and sister. Ostina is in Hasting’s pedigree.
Merry Token’s dam line has Macaroni sire line, so there’s the mare Lollypop again.
When you look at female families:
Fair Play's dam was family 9e while his sire, Hastings dam is 21.
But, Mahubah, out of Merry Token, is family 4c on the dam side, her sire, Rock Sand, is out of a 4n. So Man O' War's dam had the same (sort of) dam line on both sides of her pedigree.
Is there any evidence that that kind of concentration, especially in the dam line, can help a pedigree where you don't really see a lot of obvious line breeding?
And is this an example of one of those "woven" pedigrees in the background?
Re: Female families, for example, Secretariat:
Something Royal's dam Imperatrice, is by Caruso whose dam was 2e and she's out of Cinquepace, 2s.
I'm wondering if that mare family power via Imperatrice was what helped make Something Royal such a great broodmare, and perhaps if it had been closer up in Secretariat's pedigree, he might have gotten sons of more influence?
If you look at Hail To Reason, his fourth dam, Baton Rouge, is 4n from her dam Baton, and Man O' War, her sire, is 4c. Of course, Hail To Reason has Plucky Liege top and bottom through Admiral Drake and Sir Gallahad, two Man O' War mares on the dam's side, and Pharos twice sire's side through Nearco and Lavndula. Probably a lot closer to line breeding?
Does it help to have the same female families concentrated in a horses pedigree, in the tail female, a la, Man O' War, Hail To Reason, and Impeatrice, even if through different branches?
Bringing in some information I posted on another forum, if you look at Man O' War's predigree, you get an astonishing (I think) amount of the mare Pocohontas in his pedigree. (Plus a few others) And while I don't think Man O' War was linebred, is it possible with that concentration in the background it helped him be as influential as he was, given his lack of access to the good mares of the time? (Riddle using him a private stallion meant we'll never know what he could really have done, IMHO)
Tomahawk, who I think is the sire of Hasting's dam, Cinderella, was by King Tom who was out of Pocahontas.
Tomahawk’s dam, Mincemeat, was by Sweetmeat, the sire of Macaroni. Sweetmeat was out of Lollypop. Ostina, the mare whose lines appear twice in Lady Langdon, dam of Hampton (Mahubah's pedigree) via herself and her full brother, is here in the dam line of Tomahawk.
(Lanercost and Ostina, full brother and sister and IMHO, may have a lot to do with Hampton's ability in the stud. He's probably more known in sport horse circles for the Dark Ronald line of horses)
Lollypop appears again in Cinderella’s dam, Manna, in the dam line. Manna’s sire, Brown Bread, is from the Agnes dam line. Hastings had two prominent mares in his pedigree, Pocohontas and Agness, in the dam line.
Fairy Gold, Fair Play’s dam, sire brings back in Pocohontas.
Dame Masham, dam of Fairy Gold, dam line is Hermit/Newminster, Newminster also the sire of Lord Clifton, sire of Hampton.
To Man O' War:
Mahubah, dam of Man O’ War, her sire Rock Sand had two crosses of Pocohontas via his sire and Rock Sand’s dam brought in Pocohantas twice.
Mahubah’s dam, Merry Token, brings in Hampton and Pochontas again, at least twice, through Merry Hampton, then the mare Queen Mary appears in Merry Hamptons sire and dam line plus via Hampton there’s Lanercost and Ostina, full brother and sister. Ostina is in Hasting’s pedigree.
Merry Token’s dam line has Macaroni sire line, so there’s the mare Lollypop again.
When you look at female families:
Fair Play's dam was family 9e while his sire, Hastings dam is 21.
But, Mahubah, out of Merry Token, is family 4c on the dam side, her sire, Rock Sand, is out of a 4n. So Man O' War's dam had the same (sort of) dam line on both sides of her pedigree.
Is there any evidence that that kind of concentration, especially in the dam line, can help a pedigree where you don't really see a lot of obvious line breeding?
And is this an example of one of those "woven" pedigrees in the background?
Re: Female families, for example, Secretariat:
Something Royal's dam Imperatrice, is by Caruso whose dam was 2e and she's out of Cinquepace, 2s.
I'm wondering if that mare family power via Imperatrice was what helped make Something Royal such a great broodmare, and perhaps if it had been closer up in Secretariat's pedigree, he might have gotten sons of more influence?
If you look at Hail To Reason, his fourth dam, Baton Rouge, is 4n from her dam Baton, and Man O' War, her sire, is 4c. Of course, Hail To Reason has Plucky Liege top and bottom through Admiral Drake and Sir Gallahad, two Man O' War mares on the dam's side, and Pharos twice sire's side through Nearco and Lavndula. Probably a lot closer to line breeding?
Does it help to have the same female families concentrated in a horses pedigree, in the tail female, a la, Man O' War, Hail To Reason, and Impeatrice, even if through different branches?
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Patuxet
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A season to Bellamy Road's sire Concerto, about whom several have posted quite favorably here, is currently commanding a mere $900 in the GTBA auction ending Wednesday at 6 PM.
http://www.gtoba.com/bidonline.html
http://www.gtoba.com/bidonline.html
foxtale wrote:He did not fare well at FT Winter Mixed sale yesterday... 3 mares in foal to him ...above avg mares, with active produce records... the highest one (a stakes producer) sold for $3300. We should have been there!
Your idea of "above average" and mine are totally different. Based on those mares' pages and what they looked like, I certainly wouldn't place any of the blame for the prices they brought on Bellamy Road.
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foxtale
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Judge for yourself...
I was not there, so I don't know what they looked like.
#44 - stakes winner, 1/2 to 3 other stakes horses, 1st dam 11 to race 7 winners, black type down the page...#44 had 2 winning foals in 2008. in foal for a late Bellamy Rd... also has a somewhat questionable produce record otherwise ...ie: 2 yrs no report, 1 foal died. 1yr not pregnant. sold for $2000
#159 - stakes placed, 1st dam 9 to race 9 winners! black type down the page, #159 is a stakes producer with every foal a winner & 2 winners in 08, again... in foal late , but only missed one year... $3300.
#178 -unraced, 1/2 to a G3 placed horse that made $600,000.. 1st dam 6 to race 4 winners. weak page in 3rd and 4th dams.This is the youngest mare, with one winner in 2008 and one placed in 2009. In foal on a late cover again... $2000.
I was not there, so I don't know what they looked like.
#44 - stakes winner, 1/2 to 3 other stakes horses, 1st dam 11 to race 7 winners, black type down the page...#44 had 2 winning foals in 2008. in foal for a late Bellamy Rd... also has a somewhat questionable produce record otherwise ...ie: 2 yrs no report, 1 foal died. 1yr not pregnant. sold for $2000
#159 - stakes placed, 1st dam 9 to race 9 winners! black type down the page, #159 is a stakes producer with every foal a winner & 2 winners in 08, again... in foal late , but only missed one year... $3300.
#178 -unraced, 1/2 to a G3 placed horse that made $600,000.. 1st dam 6 to race 4 winners. weak page in 3rd and 4th dams.This is the youngest mare, with one winner in 2008 and one placed in 2009. In foal on a late cover again... $2000.
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Or, another way of looking at it:
#44. 15 year old mare by Rare Performer who looked very old for her age. Stakes winner at Tampa Bay in a race who total purse was $28,000 (ie, would not have qualified for black type any time recently). Raced 4 years, earned $50,000 total.
Produce Record: 2 unraced, 2 that have won and earned less than $20,000. 1 winner in Japan (135,000). Recently:
2006: no report
2007:not pregnant
2008: foal born dead
Last Breeding Date: June 26, 2008
#159. 14 year old mare by Frosty The Snowman. Ditto on the physical. Stakes placed in the Claiming Crown Tiara at CBY. 2002 gelding was a stakes winner at ALB. Dam of 4 other winners. Last Breeding Date: June 28, 2008.
So we have 2 mid-teenage mares who, after they foal in 2009, will need a year off before they're bred again.
#178. I didn't see her but considering the price, I would imagine she probably looked like the other two. Last Breeding Date: May 27, 2008.
Sorry, but I still can't see any way to blame these prices on the covering sire.
#44. 15 year old mare by Rare Performer who looked very old for her age. Stakes winner at Tampa Bay in a race who total purse was $28,000 (ie, would not have qualified for black type any time recently). Raced 4 years, earned $50,000 total.
Produce Record: 2 unraced, 2 that have won and earned less than $20,000. 1 winner in Japan (135,000). Recently:
2006: no report
2007:not pregnant
2008: foal born dead
Last Breeding Date: June 26, 2008
#159. 14 year old mare by Frosty The Snowman. Ditto on the physical. Stakes placed in the Claiming Crown Tiara at CBY. 2002 gelding was a stakes winner at ALB. Dam of 4 other winners. Last Breeding Date: June 28, 2008.
So we have 2 mid-teenage mares who, after they foal in 2009, will need a year off before they're bred again.
#178. I didn't see her but considering the price, I would imagine she probably looked like the other two. Last Breeding Date: May 27, 2008.
Sorry, but I still can't see any way to blame these prices on the covering sire.
I agree with LB aside from this
There are numerous stakes races that wouldn't qualify for black type now, that were run in the 90's. The Ontario Sire Seris was $35k the $45k stakes races before slots and if you look at Oaklawn Park and many other larger tracks their 2nd tier stakes races are $50-65k I would hope that if I had a filly or mare win a $50k Stake at Oaklawn with a 95+ beyer that 10 years from now someone wouldn't knock her for the fact that the track didin't put up bigger money for their stakes. Stakes races at Tampa regardless of purse are always tough given the numerous horses that treck down to Miami that might not be up to the highest level of blacktype at Gulfstream. It's tough to get blacktype anywhere, you could debate the quality of it all day long, some graded races are just as weak as some regional open listed stakes. I find KY people have an easy time dismissing any race they don't know though, and this has been a big pet peeve of mine. No offense LB
Like I said though aside from that, the projected early June foal and other factors LB made the first two mares tough sells.
Stakes winner at Tampa Bay in a race who total purse was $28,000 (ie, would not have qualified for black type any time recently
There are numerous stakes races that wouldn't qualify for black type now, that were run in the 90's. The Ontario Sire Seris was $35k the $45k stakes races before slots and if you look at Oaklawn Park and many other larger tracks their 2nd tier stakes races are $50-65k I would hope that if I had a filly or mare win a $50k Stake at Oaklawn with a 95+ beyer that 10 years from now someone wouldn't knock her for the fact that the track didin't put up bigger money for their stakes. Stakes races at Tampa regardless of purse are always tough given the numerous horses that treck down to Miami that might not be up to the highest level of blacktype at Gulfstream. It's tough to get blacktype anywhere, you could debate the quality of it all day long, some graded races are just as weak as some regional open listed stakes. I find KY people have an easy time dismissing any race they don't know though, and this has been a big pet peeve of mine. No offense LB
Like I said though aside from that, the projected early June foal and other factors LB made the first two mares tough sells.
too weird to live...too rare to die
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Am I the only one that pays almost no attention to the covering sire when I buy a mare? To me it's a bonus foal or a deal breaker on two like mares.
I can't imagine, unless we're talking 6 figure stallions, that people are so focused on a covering sire that they would pass on a mare they want because of him, unless the cover date is really late. Then I can see. Which is what probably hurt these mares if Bellamy Road even came into the equation.
I can't imagine, unless we're talking 6 figure stallions, that people are so focused on a covering sire that they would pass on a mare they want because of him, unless the cover date is really late. Then I can see. Which is what probably hurt these mares if Bellamy Road even came into the equation.