Put It Back - Breeding Right???

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GreenThumb
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Put It Back - Breeding Right???

Postby GreenThumb » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:19 pm

Hi,

Question about buying into a stallion....
Briggs's site , shows a share price to Put It Back is a $20,000 breeding right
Does that mean you pay 20k and breed for the life of the stallion?
So if I were to buy a mare to breed to Pu It Back, my 4th stud fee would be free?

http://stallions.bcbloodstock.com/image ... ndshares=1

Thanks,
Chris

tinners way
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Postby tinners way » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:09 pm

The way it reads would provide you with one season per year for the duration that the stallion is standing.

A traditional syndicate enables share holders to breed to the stallion, and also requires the shareholders to proportionate expenses and also share in the profits of a stallion.

Selling lifetime breeding rights can be written several ways. Be sure there are safe guards in the stallion not being able to be moved, etc., or you may find yourself with lifetime breeding rights to a stallion 8,000 miles away.

I know little of the stallion, but that seems to be an awfully high price for a lifetime breeding right.

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Postby da hossman » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:37 am

I agree with Tinners Way, the LBR is overpriced. Put It Back is a proven horse, the caliber of his offspring is well-known, it is unlikely that his sales appeal will change (it actually is more likely to decrease as he ages). So from an investment perspective this does not appear to be a good deal to me.

If you intend to breed to race I would recommend buying seasons so that you do not feel "locked in" to using one horse because you already have the LBR.

Spendthrift has done some very interesting and apppealing LBR deals with Notional and Into Mischief - personally I recommended the Notional LBR to several clients. One did do the deal and is thrilled with it. Great way for those that support (and therefore help to "make" the stallion) a less expensive horse in his early years to still be able to use that horse if he succeeds and his fee goes up beyond their usual stud fee range. Usually what happens with a horse that succeeds from an initially moderate stud fee is that the breeders that believed in him are financially unable to use him once he makes it. Consider Distorted Humor ($12,500), Dynaformer ($5,000), Elusive Quality ($10,000), El Prado ($5,000) etc.
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Postby LB » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:46 am

da hossman wrote:Spendthrift has done some very interesting and apppealing LBR deals with Notional and Into Mischief - personally I recommended the Notional LBR to several clients. One did do the deal and is thrilled with it. Great way for those that support (and therefore help to "make" the stallion) a less expensive horse in his early years to still be able to use that horse if he succeeds and his fee goes up beyond their usual stud fee range. Usually what happens with a horse that succeeds from an initially moderate stud fee is that the breeders that believed in him are financially unable to use him once he makes it. Consider Distorted Humor ($12,500), Dynaformer ($5,000), Elusive Quality ($10,000), El Prado ($5,000) etc.


Spendthirft will be offering a similar deal in 2011 for their new stallion Line of David.

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Postby Fireslam » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:26 pm

In this day and age, I would think that breeding right is priced high, also. Its not that your 4th breeding would be free, its that your 4th FOAL would be free. So if your mare didnt get in foal a year or two, you'd be 5 or 6 years getting your money back. I would think it would make much more sense, rather than tying your money up now, to breed to him on a live foal season. Its likely in 4 years, you'd be wanting to do something different anyway. I dont know of many people who breed to the same stallion 4 or 5 years in a row.

And hope he doesnt croak.

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Postby Mahubah » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:20 am

I'd worry more about him being sent to South America on a permanent basis. He's owned by Haras Santa Maria de Araras and has shuttled to Brazil since starting his stud career; this year, I believe he's in Argentina. He's done well in Brazil, so if he starts losing any condition or fertility, bet on him remaining in South America for good.

Only way I'd likely consider the deal is if I had a good Jolie's Halo daughter or a mare with Danzig close up that seemed to suit him physically; he likes both crosses.
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Postby FOS » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:55 pm

hi GreenThumb...hi Fireslam...hi Mahubah

GreenThumb wrote:Question about buying into a stallion....
Briggs's site , shows a share price to Put It Back is a $20,000 breeding right

It is my understanding that Put it Back is owned by two entities (the significant majority being Haras Santa Maria de Araras (as pointed out by Mahubah). There may be a documented agreement (if you will) between the entities, but I've never heard a whisper that there are shares (fractional interests) held by third parties.

That said...

...if in fact a Breeding Right is for sale...maybe it belongs to an agent that was instrumental in selling/placing the horse as a stallion prospect; or someone else who played a role in the horse's sale/placement/career.

GreenThumb wrote:Does that mean you pay 20k and breed for the life of the stallion?

That's likely the case/short of it...but you'll not know the specifics/short and long of it until/unless genuine document(s) related to the so-referenced Breeding Right are scrutinized, evaluated and confirmed by appropriate parties/authorities.

GreenThumb wrote:So if I were to buy a mare to breed to Pu It Back, my 4th stud fee would be free?

It's your prerogative how to justify/rationalize it all.

Remember though, Put It Back has stood both northern and southern hemisphere. Seems to me it would be important to know (for obvious reasons) if the Breeding Right entitles the holder to a season/nomination for each hemisphere...each year.

Knowing that Put It Back has stood both northern and southern hemisphere breeding seasons...wouldn't it be important to know also to what, if any, extent what's been asked of him (including international travel) may have taken/be taking a toll on him?

There are lots of questions to be asked; among them, how the season(s) associated with the Breeding Right may be affected/impacted if/when the stallion's book is reduced (for any reason/period of time).

I'd guess (and that's all it would be) there are no expenses of any kind allocated/attributed to the Breeding Right, but that too must be found out etc etc etc.

tinners way wrote:I know little of the stallion (Put It Back), but that seems to be an awfully high price for a lifetime breeding right.

I would submit/argue that $20k for a Lifetime Breeding Right (if in fact available) to Put It Back may very well be not only good value, but also may offer a potentially significant upside.

That said...it may be interesting to compare some of Put It Back's info/stats to the formidable (but recently deceased) Dixie Union (who stood for $35,000 at Lane's End).

Dixie Union (Dixieland Band) was retired to stud one year earlier than was Put It Back (Honour and Glory)...and was likely offered a quantity of quality mares superior (maybe far superior) to what, for the most part, was likely availed to Put It Back. It's probably fair to say that Dixie Union received what might be described as a silver-spoon opportunity at Lane's End, as compared to what Put It Back received.

For starters...according to BloodHorse Stallion Register, Put It Back (1998) stood his first season in 2002 (first foal crop 2003) and sired 5 northern hemisphere foal crops thru 2007 (totaling 243 named foals), the oldest of those being 2-yos of 2009/3-yos of 2010; plus Put It Back sired 2 southern hemisphere foal crops into 2006 (resulting in 80 named southern hemisphere foals from those 2 crops). A total of those named foals is 323 (243 northern hemisphere plus 80 southern hemisphere).

Dixie Union (per Thoroughbred Times stallion directory) stood his first season in 2001 (first crop 2002) and sired 6 northern hemisphere foal crops thru 2007 (totaling 466 named foals), the oldest of those being 2-yos of 2009/3-yos of 2010.

From Put It Back's 323 named foals (referenced above), he has sired a total (both northern and southern hemisphere) of 7 G1 winners (2 in the USA, the most recent being Jessica is Back who won the Princess Rooney-G1 eight days ago; and 5 in Brazil), 2 millionaires (one in the USA, one in Japan), 3 champions (Brazil), and 14 Graded stakes winners (USA, Japan, Brazil).

From Dixie Union's 466 named foals (referenced above), he sired 2 G1 winners, 1 millionaire (USA), 0 champions, 13 Graded stakes-winners (USA, England, France).

A carrot, or icing on the cake (if you will), re Put It Back may be that his largest crops (by a huge margin) are in the pipeline, beginning with (according to The Jockey Club info) a 2009 northern hemisphere crop numbering 96 foals (which will be 2-yos in 2011).

This comparison (Put It Back and Dixie Union) is not intended in any way to diminish Dixie Union, but rather to raise awareness of Put It Back's accomplishments by comparing/highlighting what may be his lesser known, if not underappreciated, possibly misunderstood personna...to the successful, much higher profile and very much liked Dixie Union.

All Things Considered, I believe the now 12-year-old Put It Back has not only been successful, but also has a potentially VERY bright future ahead of him.

Fireslam wrote:In this day and age, I would think that breeding right is priced high, also.

All Things Considered...and assuming Put It Back was for sale, what do you think/guess/expect (in this day and age [your words]) it would take to buy him (if he was for sale)?

Hmmmm...what if Put It Back moves to Kentucky, how then might his value/recognition be affected? How then might $20k for a breeding Right sound?

On the flip side, how (as Mahubah touched on) might the value of a Put It Back Breeding Right be affected if he is permanently moved out of the country.

Mahubah wrote:Only way I'd likely consider the deal is if I had a good Jolie's Halo daughter or a mare with Danzig close up that seemed to suit him physically; he likes both crosses.

Yes he's done very well with those crosses...but it seems to me that very tall mares (maybe 16-2, 16-3, maybe even pushing 17 hands) with LOTS of leg under them, and plenty of length may be a key to producing some of his best. With that in mind it may be worthwhile considering/selecting that type for him.

Bottom line, there's lots of questions to be asked (and answered)...and if someone really likes Put It Back, likes what he's accomplished, and would consider owning a breeding right...I (for one) don't find a $20k asking price (in and of itself) reason enough to not ask the questions and get the facts.

Thoughts?

Respectfully

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Postby da hossman » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:42 pm

FOS, I fail to see how a $20,000 LBR iin Put It Back can be considered "good value" - Put It Back's 2009 yearlings averaged $38k with a median of $14k, so using $15k (conservative) as expenses to raise a horse to its yearling sale, over half of his yearlings are losing investments for their owners before considering the stud fee!

There is absolutely no reason to believe Put It Back's progeny will become more fashionable - therefore no reason to believe his stud fee will increase.

If one can breed to him for $5000 Stand & Nurse (2010 unofficial but trading price) then why would one commit $20,000 for an LBR which is essentially a Lifetime No Guarantee season? If you like him that much simply buy a $5k Stand & Nurse every year and get a guarantee as well as delayed payment terms.

An LBR does not allow one to participate in any bonus pool income or added income (Stallion Awards, Breeders Cup Awards).

Finally the Southern Hemisphere questions are real and all the more reason for buying individual guaranteed seasons.

Summation - a $20,000 LBR in Put It Back is a bad deal.

Respectfully.

Hoss
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Postby tinners way » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:29 pm

FOS all very valid arguments as to why Put It Back has value. My concern is with LBR. It may be a great value, but most contracts that I have read limit what you are actually buying, and you have no control over the horse. At least in a syndicate you are usually assured of certain things; size of book, bonus season opportunities, location of the horse, etc.

What happens if they decide to keep the horse in SA, is it worth shipping mares on 20k investment.

To the other question, the partners can sell all the LBR's they want. It does not involve shares or fractional interest in the horse, only the ability to send a mare, if you know where he is. Great for the partners, as they have your money.

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Postby kimberley mine » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:26 am

If the LBR includes the right for one mare in NH and one mare in the SH, I would argue that actually does present some value--especially if the season can be sold, or a partner agreement entered into with a south american mare owner.

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Postby Jessi P » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:05 am

Kimberly that is exactly what I was thinking - if you could sell that southern hemisphere season then he does indeed represent some value at that price.
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Re: Put It Back - Breeding Right???

Postby springboro » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:30 pm

i'm resurrecting an ancient threat here, but I just bought a huge Put It Back mare, out of a Robin des Pins broodmare. Some minor black type, but this mare was intended to be a riding horse for me. She's 17.1 and just off the track. I simply can't figure out where she gets her size!

Also, I can't help noticing that both Put It Back and Robin des Pins were outstanding South American sires. While I chuckled at the thought of breeding her I now *might* entertain the thought with an eye for a Southern Hemisphere cover? Is that just crazy?

Thoughts? Is anyone still out there!?

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Re: Put It Back - Breeding Right???

Postby Mac » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:13 pm

Would you breed this mare to sell the foal or to race?

17 1/2 hands .... wow. She's tall!

I like Put It Back as a sire, he can get a serious grade one level runner and has been doing it without the upper echelon mares. Robin Des Pins may not be well known, but Nureyev over Key To The Mint is hard not to like. So yes I think she'd be interesting depending on your goals. A ton of good crossed for you depending on breeding to race or to sell.

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Re: Put It Back - Breeding Right???

Postby Mahubah » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:17 am

Sounds like she might be a throwback to Graustark, who was a big, massive horse like his broodmare sire Alibhai and could throw such types.
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