Back to Pedigree Query
It is currently Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:40 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Cee's Tizzy's gray males
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:07 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
When one studies the progeny of Cee's Tizzy, both:

(1) when he is crossed with all his breeding mates, and
(2) when he has been crossed with Cee's Song alone (dam of Tiznow)

it seems patent that his ability to sire outstanding gray males does not par his ability to sire outstanding non-gray horses.

He seems to do better when he sires gray mares than gray horses.
His crosses with Tiznow provide a good example.

In this sense he shows a different performance than sires like Runaway Groom, Cozzene, Unbridled's Songs, Maria's Mon, Holy Bull and various others top grays.

Do you agree?


http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/cees+song

http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/cees+tizzy


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: what?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:12 am 
Offline
Maiden Special Weight

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:12 pm
Posts: 117
Surely little conclusions could be drawn from such a small sample?

And in any case, the idea that racing ability and coat colour is linked is absurd.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:30 pm 
Offline
Restricted Stakes Winner

Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:41 pm
Posts: 767
Location: Sydney, Australia
I don't know, I heard that 7 percent of all horses are grey, but grey horses win 9 percent of the races.

I'm not saying that's conclusive, just interesting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:37 am 
Offline
Breeder's Cup Winner

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
Posts: 2212
It is not the gray coat color, that makes a better racehorse. But it can be used as a marker for genes on the same chromosome.

So lets say there is a quality that improves running : turbo boost 3 that is on the same chromosome as the gray color gene. If you end up with gray + turbo boost 3, on one of the chromosome pairs, and non-gray and no turbo boost on the other chromsome, all the gray offspring will have the enhancement, and the non-gray offspring won't.

So it would appear that the gray color is making the horse run faster.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: possible
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:38 am 
Offline
Maiden Special Weight

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:12 pm
Posts: 117
That is possible, but unlikely.

Obviously the presence of a "turbo" gene linked with the grey gene would play out in the manner you describe. In reality racing ability is far too complex to be explained genetically. I spose a detrimental gene linked with his non-grey gene might be a more plausible scenario?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:52 am 
Offline
Breeder's Cup Winner

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
Posts: 2212
Sure, it was just an example--as far as I know there is no such thing as a turbo gene. But there are lots of genes on a chromosome, so there could be some combinations of genes moving together that give some advantage in racing performance, and the gray gene is a handy marker.

Historically grays were thought to be not so speedy, but able to run all day.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:40 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
xfactor fan wrote:
But there are lots of genes on a chromosome, so there could be some combinations of genes moving together that give some advantage in racing performance, and the gray gene is a handy marker.


That's the proposition I was exploring. We all know that coat color genes, as well as many other genes, run independently. But up to a certain point, some "unrelated" genes seems not so-independent than others. Cees Tizzy looks like a very interesting case to study in spite of the small examples for comparision. Perhaps, but in a lesser magnitude, the not-so-spectacular stallion, Spectacular Bid may also be included. Godswalk (by Dancer's Image) too. Unfortunately, there is no scientific data one may grab and show, but.....hmmm....there seems to be something.

Again, thanks we have the references of Runaway Groom, Cozzene, Unbridled's Songs, Maria's Mon, Holy Bull and various others top grays.

On another level, of course, this subject makes me remember the famous case of the English mare who wanted to be "reunited" with a certain unfashionable stallion instead of the top-notch sire she was to be scheduled and the owner followed the non-scientific approach she was "suggesting" and a Derby equine was produced. I am not saying that scientific methods should not be employed (odds are always good), but since no one is an infalible genetic connoisseur, we should not discard strange tandems between different traits. I am sure that part of Federico Tesio's secretiveness was in part to the fact that since he employed so many intuitions and personal unproven dogmas in a mix he feared to be ridiculed by the more knowledgable gurus. This can be seen in his wrong postulates against gray horses, but at the same time, he was proved right with Nearco and Ribot. That's the reason why "probabilities" and "posibilities' are two quite different terms.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: I agree
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:45 am 
Offline
Maiden Special Weight

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:12 pm
Posts: 117
I agree with your last sentence.

It's improbable, but not impossible :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:02 pm 
Offline
Breeder's Cup Winner

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
Posts: 2212
Tesio did the research and then changed his mind based on research about grays. (He started calling grey a disease)
As for the self selection, the modern case would be to look at the few foals from War Emblem. The stallion is "choosy" to say the least. Now if all the foals are stakes winners, there may be something to the theory.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:35 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
The answer to this posting is still some sort of mystery...perhaps with breeding connotations.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:24 am 
Offline
Grade III Winner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 pm
Posts: 1150
Location: New England & Florida
Equine researchers in Poland wondered whether the genes that determine a horse's color could be related to genetic traits conducive to winning races. They looked into the genetic linkages between coat color and race earnings.

"The results were clear that whether or not a horse is grey or turning grey has no bearing on its racing performance."

However "The genes which determine if there's red in a horse's coat have some connection with how well a horse races."

http://www.horsesciencenews.com/horse-r ... racing.php

http://versita.metapress.com/content/v550284328254422/

_________________
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:48 am 
Offline
Allowance Winner

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:39 pm
Posts: 274
Tonno100 wrote:
Surely little conclusions could be drawn from such a small sample?

And in any case, the idea that racing ability and coat colour is linked is absurd.


How many white (not gray) or palomino racehorses can you name? Absurd?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:01 am 
Offline
Grade II Winner
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:52 pm
Posts: 1478
Location: Tampa
How many have raced?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:07 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
Let me update this topic in order to compare him
with Caro who in addition of producing great Thoroughbreds,
also had the great ability of producing very talented greys.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:17 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 6234
Jorge wrote:
Let me update this topic in order to compare him
with Caro who in addition of producing great Thoroughbreds,
also had the great ability of producing very talented greys.


The Caro topic can be read at:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... 7&start=15


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group