Okay so now that I have gone back to Ky again and ventured out to some farms, I was wondering in your experience which stallions you have seen that tend to throw to the mare. Yes, it's sort of a vaguely worded question, but my reason is to try to get some idea. One could even say that the size of the foal comes from the mare, the hip, the shoulder, etc. There are plenty of short stallions that seem to have sons who are quite a bit taller, longer and generally scopier so I'd just be interested in feedback.
I'm trying to see if there are patterns among certain bloodlines that will support something that's a bit muddled in my own little brain.
Who generally throws "to the mare"
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da hossman
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OK Tap, I'll make it even more confusing. There are some mares that are said to "throw the stallion" - regardless of their covering sire their foals resemble the sire more than themselves (the mare).
My experience has been that the mare is usually 75% or more of the foal, but there are exceptions and there are stallions that seem to sire themselves. Yes It's True, Dynaformer, Unbridled's Song, Tapit, Dehere & Grand Slam seem to "stamp" them fairly well. There are plenty of others that do the same but those immediately come to mind.
As far as stallions that "threw the mare", perhaps another description would be stallions that did not throw themselves with overwhelming frequency - Seattle Slew is an example of a stallion that threw various shapes and sizes but all of them ran like crazy. Certainly some of his foals resembled him, but many did not.
It has been interesting to watch Dynaformer's progeny become more attractive as the quality of his mares has improved. He will still throw an ugly one like himself, but many now have pretty heads and better hind legs than Dynaformer himself. The early crops seemed to be clones of Dynaformer.
I think the most important thing breeders can do is start with the mare - start with a quality mare. If your budget is limited start with an older quality mare and try to keep a daughter to replace her. Don't compromise quality for the sake of youth, instead buy that 15 + year old that has already produced stakes horses. They are cheaper now than ever before.
Likewise when you do your matings start with the mare, then consider stallions that may suit her. Of course this is horse breeding which is not a clearcut science, so others may have different opinions. However in my experience success is more likely when starting with an older proven producer than with the younger unproven mare in the same price range. Youth carries a higher price tag and age is deeply discounted.
My experience has been that the mare is usually 75% or more of the foal, but there are exceptions and there are stallions that seem to sire themselves. Yes It's True, Dynaformer, Unbridled's Song, Tapit, Dehere & Grand Slam seem to "stamp" them fairly well. There are plenty of others that do the same but those immediately come to mind.
As far as stallions that "threw the mare", perhaps another description would be stallions that did not throw themselves with overwhelming frequency - Seattle Slew is an example of a stallion that threw various shapes and sizes but all of them ran like crazy. Certainly some of his foals resembled him, but many did not.
It has been interesting to watch Dynaformer's progeny become more attractive as the quality of his mares has improved. He will still throw an ugly one like himself, but many now have pretty heads and better hind legs than Dynaformer himself. The early crops seemed to be clones of Dynaformer.
I think the most important thing breeders can do is start with the mare - start with a quality mare. If your budget is limited start with an older quality mare and try to keep a daughter to replace her. Don't compromise quality for the sake of youth, instead buy that 15 + year old that has already produced stakes horses. They are cheaper now than ever before.
Likewise when you do your matings start with the mare, then consider stallions that may suit her. Of course this is horse breeding which is not a clearcut science, so others may have different opinions. However in my experience success is more likely when starting with an older proven producer than with the younger unproven mare in the same price range. Youth carries a higher price tag and age is deeply discounted.
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I understand it works both ways and I understand that there are mares that will throw to the stallion and mares who throw themselves each and every time. It's a rather quiet time in the world right now and a good opportunity to learn about things I don't know much about. And there seem to be a nice sampling of breeders around who can also contribute if they so wish
So let's take Yes It's True since I posted a picture of him in the other thread and then look at my mare, pictured here for reference
I would say with as much certainty as I can that no matter who I breed her to she will pass on that leg, and yes there is an awful lot of it. As she is atypical of a Forty Niner/Mr P (From what I have been told but I might be wrong!) she favors her female family and in particular her grandmother who is a daughter of Cormorant. One generation further back and you have a half to Sun Colony and then from there descends Pleasant Colony and all that size again. It's a shame there are no 16 hand one's from him or I'd be on that tomorrow!
Okay, we only have one subject "foal" from the mare so we really can't say what she would do with a stallion that is not really a physical match as close as this colt's sire is to her,but in the case of a stallion who throws to himself combined with a mare who is going to throw down tons of leg, does mother nature actually produce horses who look like giraffe's?
I don't think I want to send my mare to a stallion who is larger than she is, but it seems there are a fair number of short one's who are capable of producing foals that one has to presume are the size of the mare? Point Given and Summer Bird would be examples of offspring that are quite a bit bigger than their sires.
It is definitely true that the more horses you look at the more things you notice and the more foals you have the more you will see what they produce, and that is something I would expect you would take into account and be more critical of a stallions physical.
So let's take Yes It's True since I posted a picture of him in the other thread and then look at my mare, pictured here for reference
I would say with as much certainty as I can that no matter who I breed her to she will pass on that leg, and yes there is an awful lot of it. As she is atypical of a Forty Niner/Mr P (From what I have been told but I might be wrong!) she favors her female family and in particular her grandmother who is a daughter of Cormorant. One generation further back and you have a half to Sun Colony and then from there descends Pleasant Colony and all that size again. It's a shame there are no 16 hand one's from him or I'd be on that tomorrow!
Okay, we only have one subject "foal" from the mare so we really can't say what she would do with a stallion that is not really a physical match as close as this colt's sire is to her,but in the case of a stallion who throws to himself combined with a mare who is going to throw down tons of leg, does mother nature actually produce horses who look like giraffe's?
I don't think I want to send my mare to a stallion who is larger than she is, but it seems there are a fair number of short one's who are capable of producing foals that one has to presume are the size of the mare? Point Given and Summer Bird would be examples of offspring that are quite a bit bigger than their sires.
It is definitely true that the more horses you look at the more things you notice and the more foals you have the more you will see what they produce, and that is something I would expect you would take into account and be more critical of a stallions physical.
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Barcaldine
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I think one of the great secrets of breeding good horses is to find a mare with good dominant traits and breed that mare to a stallion with the same good dominant traits and you have increased the chances of having a foal who is pure for those good dominant traits. The problem is finding the brood s tock with a great deal of those good dominant traits.
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Try it you will like it.
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If you have a mare with a dominant trait why would you want a stallion with the same exact trait, particularly if you don't have the $ to go to the big money stallions? I know I'm getting it no matter what I breed to. If I want to breed my mare to a stallion who matches great on paper AND throws to the mare I can consider that but what if that particular stallion threw that short backed, blocky appearance?
I will gladly bet anyone a nice steak dinner in NYC or Ky that no matter who I breed my mare to that foal will have tons of leg/bone. She's open now and I am 75% sure I know who she will go to next year and if not, it won't be to one who is as leggy as what I have now, it will be to someone who offers something I'd like to add to my mare (precocity is one).
I will gladly bet anyone a nice steak dinner in NYC or Ky that no matter who I breed my mare to that foal will have tons of leg/bone. She's open now and I am 75% sure I know who she will go to next year and if not, it won't be to one who is as leggy as what I have now, it will be to someone who offers something I'd like to add to my mare (precocity is one).
Tappiano wrote:Oh, yes indeed! It is LEG and bone and if she is bred to a short backed or square type stallion I could wind up with a horse that looks like a giraffe... it would probably be incredibly unbalanced and look like it's parts were thrown together.
I think your next step is to look at the sires and dams of any future sire. I think breeding type to type is wise, if the type is producing. Many times you will find good horses that come from parents with different body types, but unless you breed back to one of those body types, you are just taking a wild guess. Thats whats wrong with breeding to a balanced pedigree when we don't know what the sire's sire and dam look like.
I read somewhere, where the really big stallions, were of different body types from the normal mares of their day. Northern Dancer was a good example and so was St. Simon.
Loving God, Loving People and Serving = Peace and Happiness
Try it you will like it.
Try it you will like it.
I happened upon this thread, thought it was an interesting discussion, and wanted to know what stallion you ended up going to. If anybody has fresh thoughts, I'd like to hear those too.
I feel like La Ville Rouge is one of those mares that has babies that 'take after their momma.' Zenyatta's colt seems to have her ears (can't speak to the rest of him as that's all I can stare at when I see photos), Rachel's apparently looks a great deal like her in many respects. The more his coat comes in, the more obvious it gets. It's possible that they've got the dominant traits and are passing them on. (Fingers crossed cuz those traits are pretty awesome).
I feel like La Ville Rouge is one of those mares that has babies that 'take after their momma.' Zenyatta's colt seems to have her ears (can't speak to the rest of him as that's all I can stare at when I see photos), Rachel's apparently looks a great deal like her in many respects. The more his coat comes in, the more obvious it gets. It's possible that they've got the dominant traits and are passing them on. (Fingers crossed cuz those traits are pretty awesome).
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