Is it time to revisit the issue of AI?

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:10 am

http://perfectpeacefarm.blogspot.com/20 ... d-off.html

I thought this was interesting enough to post here. In the financial climate that we are in, wouldn't AI save money and if it would save people money, wouldn't it be prudent to at least seriously consider allowing it (i know it happens, don't preach to me, I mean "officially allowing it")?

ElPrado · Postby **ElPrado** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:44 am

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:51 am

No. And actually, it really doesn't happen. The penalties are far too severe and there are too many "rats" out there to risk it. Just ask the folks who were involved with Goldmaker... getting your registration papers pulled/cancelled is no small matter.

There is more than just AI to consider; by allowing AI then embryo transplant is a natural follower. And you think books are big now for stallions? Imagine books of 500 or more.

ElPrado · Postby **ElPrado** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:51 am

No.
If the JC finds out some farm is using AI, the farm wouldn't be allowed to register any more foals. Clear now? If you know it happens, post which farms it happens at. There's an inspector to watch over breedings, just in case you didn't realize it.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:24 am

ElPrado wrote:No.

If the JC finds out some farm is using AI, the farm wouldn't be allowed to register any more foals. Clear now? If you know it happens, post which farms it happens at. There's an inspector to watch over breedings, just in case you didn't realize it.

I really do not know who pissed in your fruit loops but that last part of my post came from information i took directly from this forum. In fact I knew when I posted it, you or someone else would come along and try to bait me to show just how smart you are and how stupid i am. I let alot of stuff I see that is directed towards me slide because i try to be the better person (now adays) and not get in pissing matches anymore, in particularly posted by you, and this is the second time i've had to respond to some of your blatant pissy attacks to me asking honest questions, but I'm not in the mood today. I apologize if me trying to spark a thought provoking discussion about an issue offends you. Actually I don't. If you have a problem with me PM me, but I am asking you very politely to please cut it out. It's very immature and I won't stoop to this level again, i feel yucky as it is.

Here you go buddy

I have been here for a VErY long time and I remember posts from a LONG time ago. I picked that information up off someone on this very forum, that it goes on alot more than people realize

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... ghlight=ai

OK, let's all admit it-----A.I. is used extensively in the U.S. Even though the Jockey Club strictly prohibits its use, except as an immediate backup to a live cover, many farms (small and large) use the BIG SLEEVE.

A.I. is also our industry's Jumbo in the living room. NO ONE will cop to it although a number of participating farms have been caught red handed. It's just too hot a potato for our "leaders" to handle. Of course, many of these 'leaders' own large breeding farms with stallions who supposedly breed upwards of 200 mares a season--sometimes in both hemispheres.

So, recognizing that A.I. is a forbidden practice (rightly or wrongly), what are the opinions of those who frequent the breeding sheds? Any evidence?

It happens all the time. The Jockey Club should come out of the middle ages and realize that AI is a more efficient and humane way of breeding. The number of mares that are covered (allegedly) by one horse (big time sires) is cruelty. There would be less infections in mares and horses and better husbandry all around. I'm not condoning freezing or shipping semen. Collecting a horse every other day is far more efficient and a better business practice for stallion and mare owner. AI will not increase the foal crop size as some fear, it is market driven. For the good of the industry I think there should be a maximum of 100 - 125 mares to be bred to one horse.

I've heard from dozens of people, none of whom ever worked on a breeding farm, how prevalent AI is in the TB industry. With these books of 200, it doesn't seem possible to me that these farms could accomplish that many breedings without it. But I keep coming back to the thought that there has to be several people involved for each collection and insemination, and they are all employees that are subject to getting mad and leaving. If two people know a secret, it's no secret. How is it possible that major farms have not been exposed by now by eyewitnesses?

And before you bitch about me pulling information just to try to defend myself, i posted in that thread, 4 years ago.

The Mod on this very forum doesn't see the issue with AI, and alot of people would do it if legal, and there are members here who have 100x more experience and knowledge then I do that admit it's very prevalent, but ib ring it up and i get hung to the cross, for no other reason than I'm me, when I'm doing nothing but regurgitating information i've read here. That's about the status quo now. so I believe the question at the very least warrants a discussion, it did then, and at that time we were going though a spike in the breeding industry. Right now we are going though some of the toughest times the industry has seen in a while, and i think anything that could cut costs and make things easier on the owners is worth putting on the table. JMHO.

Now that I have dealt wit that, wouldn't AI seriously cut breeding expenses? wouldn't you have to hire less people to make the matings work? Wouldn't the farms be able to reduce prices (i'm asking i seriously do not know), you would not have to pay to have the mare shipped to the farm, plus i am sure i am missing some things.

You could on the other hand, as someone made a few years ago make the argument that it would narrow the gene pool, which I am sure it would to an extent.

My point being, that I don't think the subject is very taboo and it warrants a real discussion.

Bast · Postby **Bast** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:12 pm

Aren't major farms now video recording matings as backup proof of what actually happened, to protect themselves legally?

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:26 pm

With AI, the attendant costs are actually quite a lot higher than with live cover. There is a collection fee, container, shipping, insemination, etc. The timing can be brutal, and it is very common with frozen semen that it is priced by the straw, no guarantee. ALL of AI is paid in advance.. no more paying once the foal is born. Everyone I am personally acquainted with who has done both has ended up paying quite a lot more for AI.

casallc · Postby **casallc** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:32 pm

The answer is yes. AI is simply more efficient and a better practice for everyone concerned, horse, mare, handlers, owners and the industry in general. Infections are the primary cause of early embryonic loss in mares and at least half the time the culprit is the covering stallion. If you were to culture the genitalia of most any stallion you will come up with any number of organisms that can cause an infection that will cause a mare to abort. You should also culture the semen on every breeding stallion regularly but they don’t do it. The farms will insist on a clean culture on your mare but they would be out of business if they had to provide a clean culture for the stud. When you have a high dollar mare that has slipped foals several years showing on her produce record - she isn't a high dollar mare anymore. Treating the semen with antibiotics can solve most all of those problems.
The Jockey Club is a group of dinosaurs with only their own clannish self interest in mind. One reason the business is declining is because of stupidity on the part of the ones that are supposed to be the guardians of the breed.

summerhorse · Postby **summerhorse** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:58 pm

casallc wrote:The answer is yes. AI is simply more efficient and a better practice for everyone concerned, horse, mare, handlers, owners and the industry in general. Infections are the primary cause of early embryonic loss in mares and at least half the time the culprit is the covering stallion. If you were to culture the genitalia of most any stallion you will come up with any number of infections that can cause an infection that will cause a mare to abort. You should also culture the semen on every breeding stallion regularly but they don’t do it. The farms will insist on a clean culture on your mare but they would be out of business if they had to provide a clean culture for the stud. When you have a high dollar mare that has slipped foals several years showing on her produce record - she isn't a high dollar mare anymore. Treating the semen with antibiotics can solve most all of those problems.
The Jockey Club is a group of dinosaurs with only their own clannish self interest in mind. One reason the business is declining is because of stupidity on the part of the ones that are supposed to be the guardians of the breed.

Ditto!

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:25 pm

Two points I'd like to make.

First has anyone taken a long hard look at what has happened in both the Standardbred, and Quarter Horse breeds? Both allow AI, and other reproductive technologies.

So far I've yet to see a two headed QH, and they use a lot of high tech processes.

Second point.

Not all stallions can be collected and frozen. Short term this limits the stallions that can be used. Long term, it provides an "bottleneck" in the gene pool.

What is the difference between semen that can be frozen, and semen that can't. What other traits are effected by this selection? So in selecting for "freezability" what else is being selected for or against? This is long term population genetics stuff. And I don't think the time frame in the QH and Standardbred breeds has been long for the effects to show up.

casallc · Postby **casallc** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:54 pm

xfactor fan wrote:Two points I'd like to make.

First has anyone taken a long hard look at what has happened in both the Standardbred, and Quarter Horse breeds? Both allow AI, and other reproductive technologies.

So far I've yet to see a two headed QH, and they use a lot of high tech processes.

Second point.

Not all stallions can be collected and frozen. Short term this limits the stallions that can be used. Long term, it provides an "bottleneck" in the gene pool.

What is the difference between semen that can be frozen, and semen that can't. What other traits are effected by this selection? So in selecting for "freezability" what else is being selected for or against? This is long term population genetics stuff. And I don't think the time frame in the QH and Standardbred breeds has been long for the effects to show up.

Very few use frozen semen in the QH racing industry. #1 Roughly 30% of stallions have semen that will be highly fertile post-thaw; 40% "average"; and 30% sub-fertile. #2 Conception rates for artificial insemination with frozen equine semen are on average lower than those seen with fresh or cooled semen. #3 Thawing protocols, times and temperatures must be followed carefully with frozen semen where cooled or fresh semen is more forgiving. #4 Mares require more intense estrus monitoring as frozen semen requires insemination within the 12 hours prior to or 6 hours following ovulation.

As far as hurting the industry, QH racing yearling sales have shown steady increases in the last few years where thoroughbreds have declined.

Crystal · Postby **Crystal** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:02 pm

with an industry that is over populated by lack luster stock,, why on earth double or triple production?

breeding and boarding farms along with repro vets make their bread and butter with day rates, daily palps/ultrasounds and other procedure. Cutting that out along with the folks who work in the breeding sheds (along with working on the farm caring for horses) would also cut jobs.

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:51 pm

Crystal wrote:with an industry that is over populated by lack luster stock,, why on earth double or triple production?

breeding and boarding farms along with repro vets make their bread and butter with day rates, daily palps/ultrasounds and other procedure. Cutting that out along with the folks who work in the breeding sheds (along with working on the farm caring for horses) would also cut jobs.

i understand the concern, but would there really be more horses bred?

owners/buyers drive the stallion market, at least the way i see it. As long as there are is the same amount of demand, i don't see why people would be breeding extra, just because it's easier.

what i think would be a bigger concern (at least in my feeble mind) would be outright lying about a horses pedigree.

Zahrah · Postby **Zahrah** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:43 pm

bdw0617 wrote:
Crystal wrote:what i think would be a bigger concern (at least in my feeble mind) would be outright lying about a horses pedigree.

The Jockey Club requires DNA samples.

Fireslam · Postby **Fireslam** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:51 pm

Crystal wrote:with an industry that is over populated by lack luster stock,, why on earth double or triple production?

breeding and boarding farms along with repro vets make their bread and butter with day rates, daily palps/ultrasounds and other procedure. Cutting that out along with the folks who work in the breeding sheds (along with working on the farm caring for horses) would also cut jobs.

How does it triple production? You need mares for production. Last I looked the number of mares being bred has dropped, and it has nothing to do with AI or Live Cover.

How does it cut jobs? Mares still are boarded, vets still have to do daily palps and ultrasounds. People still have to work in the breeding sheds; stallions dont collect themselves.

You need a better argument than that.