Bernardini sons
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Bernardini sons
Any information on Wilburn or the newcomers at stud by Bernardini? Thoughts on pedigrees and conformation please! Looking for KY location stallions.
-
Patuxet
- Grade III Winner
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 pm
- Location: New England & Florida
Here in FL someone whose advice I respect has recommended his son Biondetti to me. In another thread on this board Barcaldine, a knowledgeable poster, said of Wilburm: "He's a gorgeous horse but toes out in both fronts so I plan on breeding two very correct mares, a Silver Deputy and a Stormy Atlantic."
"He is pure air and fire and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him; he is indeed a horse ..." Wm. Shakespeare - Henry V
Hi Jlm,
Wilburn
I haven't seen this stallion in the flesh so my comments are based on his Stallion Register conformation picture. These pictures can be misleading so I'd need to confirm possible physical concerns that I describe below:
Body: Well balanced with good muscle. Looks like his sire (Bernardini).
Legs: Lacks bone associated with this sire line (Slew). Knees flat.
Feet: Small, delicate and more upright (pasterns) than sire (line).
Wilburn has a strong resemblance to his sire above the legs and little below where his appearance is delicate.
He sold poorly as a yearling ($75,000, 36/40) but well as a 2yo in training ($625,000, 1/4).
I like to ask the stud farm to describe the stallion and his flaws. Keep in mind that farms tend towards painting a positive picture but I find it rare that they'll outright lie or mislead about a conformation issue.
From the Stallion Register:
The first Bernardini son to stand at stud, covered 169 mares.
He's sold 12 mares in foal for an average of $8,700, with 8 selling for less than his advertised stud fee. This average is boosted by a Deputy Minister daughter, Epistle, that sold in foal to Wilburn for $40,000, but she appears to be worth at least that much even if she were open. Without Epistle he averaged less than $6,000. This lack of market support concerns me.
He's off to a shaky commercial start and I'd need to clarify some physical issues but he's a reasonable play if you're breeding to race and like Bernardini.
Biondetti
I can't comment on his physical and I don't like his race record. The silver lining is that he ran 4th in the Breeder's Cup Juvenile but he was beaten by 12 lengths and was ~2 lengths from being 8th. He did make a run it was a credible performance. His other races were international with the only real success being the Grand Criterium (G1 ITY) and to me that's not a good prospect for commercial or race track success in North America unless they rename him Ribot or Nearco.
Hope this helps and good luck - please let us know what you decide.
Regards,
Pete
Wilburn
I haven't seen this stallion in the flesh so my comments are based on his Stallion Register conformation picture. These pictures can be misleading so I'd need to confirm possible physical concerns that I describe below:
Body: Well balanced with good muscle. Looks like his sire (Bernardini).
Legs: Lacks bone associated with this sire line (Slew). Knees flat.
Feet: Small, delicate and more upright (pasterns) than sire (line).
Wilburn has a strong resemblance to his sire above the legs and little below where his appearance is delicate.
He sold poorly as a yearling ($75,000, 36/40) but well as a 2yo in training ($625,000, 1/4).
I like to ask the stud farm to describe the stallion and his flaws. Keep in mind that farms tend towards painting a positive picture but I find it rare that they'll outright lie or mislead about a conformation issue.
From the Stallion Register:
The first Bernardini son to stand at stud, covered 169 mares.
He's sold 12 mares in foal for an average of $8,700, with 8 selling for less than his advertised stud fee. This average is boosted by a Deputy Minister daughter, Epistle, that sold in foal to Wilburn for $40,000, but she appears to be worth at least that much even if she were open. Without Epistle he averaged less than $6,000. This lack of market support concerns me.
He's off to a shaky commercial start and I'd need to clarify some physical issues but he's a reasonable play if you're breeding to race and like Bernardini.
Biondetti
I can't comment on his physical and I don't like his race record. The silver lining is that he ran 4th in the Breeder's Cup Juvenile but he was beaten by 12 lengths and was ~2 lengths from being 8th. He did make a run it was a credible performance. His other races were international with the only real success being the Grand Criterium (G1 ITY) and to me that's not a good prospect for commercial or race track success in North America unless they rename him Ribot or Nearco.
Hope this helps and good luck - please let us know what you decide.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
I am going to get slated for this but here goes.
Bernadini is not worth the hype.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... ree=126196
Compared to Arch and Lemon Drop Kid, he doesn't look good.
Horses like Bernadini are bad for the breed.
494 foals 114 winners.
I'll put on my crash helmet....
Bernadini is not worth the hype.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... ree=126196
Compared to Arch and Lemon Drop Kid, he doesn't look good.
Horses like Bernadini are bad for the breed.
494 foals 114 winners.
I'll put on my crash helmet....
Edited by Moderator
Yea, Dublino, better put it on, the persnickities are on the forum today.
Don't you all wish we could go back to the 1970's and 80's just for the quality of horses that were around. I mean to have seen Slew in person, and watched Secretariat win that incredible Triple Crown, then Slew, then Affirmed. Then it ends.
We had Ruffian for too short a time, but to this day, no filly/mare has come close to her.
We also had the historic trainers with the stories they could tell. We've lost alot of them, still a few around, but the new styled trainers can't hold a candle to them.
Is it that there is too much inbreeding? The good horses are not here? WHAT IS IT?
Dublino, I've got some photos of Seattle Slew taken up close when he was in his paddock and he had to see everything that was going on! LOL and also they took him out for a little jog which they did up until his old age, with the exception when he was having problems with his back. When I find them I'll send you some copies. He was gorgeous, and had the most beautiful almond colored eyes. I'll never forget it. He had a certain "style" head, and I'm so happy my mare has that same style head. Wish she was his color tho...
Don't you all wish we could go back to the 1970's and 80's just for the quality of horses that were around. I mean to have seen Slew in person, and watched Secretariat win that incredible Triple Crown, then Slew, then Affirmed. Then it ends.
We had Ruffian for too short a time, but to this day, no filly/mare has come close to her.
We also had the historic trainers with the stories they could tell. We've lost alot of them, still a few around, but the new styled trainers can't hold a candle to them.
Is it that there is too much inbreeding? The good horses are not here? WHAT IS IT?
Dublino, I've got some photos of Seattle Slew taken up close when he was in his paddock and he had to see everything that was going on! LOL and also they took him out for a little jog which they did up until his old age, with the exception when he was having problems with his back. When I find them I'll send you some copies. He was gorgeous, and had the most beautiful almond colored eyes. I'll never forget it. He had a certain "style" head, and I'm so happy my mare has that same style head. Wish she was his color tho...
We will NEVER see another Ruffian......
dublino wrote:I am going to get slated for this but here goes.
Bernadini is not worth the hype.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... ree=126196
Compared to Arch and Lemon Drop Kid, he doesn't look good.
Horses like Bernadini are bad for the breed.
494 foals 114 winners.
I'll put on my crash helmet....
Regardless of your opinion of Bernardini, your numbers are skewed.
Bernardini is 8 years younger than Arch and 7 years younger than Leomon Drop Kid. So--in the comparison you've provided--a much larger percentage of his registered foals have yet to reach racing age than is true for the other two stallions.
Bernardini currently has 419 offspring of racing age, including 97 that turned 2 years old two weeks ago. Practically speaking, only 322 of his foals are old enough to have even had the opportunity to race.
Hi Dublino,
LB is correct, sire stats need to be adjusted to have any comparative meaning.
I exclude all 2yos, 50% of the 3yos and 10% of the 4yos from sire stats at the beginning of the year. I adjust these stats as the year progresses.
Bernardini is doing well at stud. He's expensive at $150,000 and he's light on SWs and 2yos but 12 of his 15 SWs are graded (excellent) and most of them are colts so I don't believe that his fee will fall anytime soon. I expect that he'll continue to see superior mares. Is he the Flavor du Jour? To a degree, but he's an important young sire who appears poised to fulfill his hype.
I think that you make a good comparison to Arch because they're similar in many ways. Arch was at one time considered by many to be a failed stallion and his fee dropped to $5,000. I brought a lot of client mares to him at $7,500.
Lemon Drop Kid too was very cold to begin his career and his fee fell for a while.
Regards,
Pete
LB is correct, sire stats need to be adjusted to have any comparative meaning.
I exclude all 2yos, 50% of the 3yos and 10% of the 4yos from sire stats at the beginning of the year. I adjust these stats as the year progresses.
Bernardini is doing well at stud. He's expensive at $150,000 and he's light on SWs and 2yos but 12 of his 15 SWs are graded (excellent) and most of them are colts so I don't believe that his fee will fall anytime soon. I expect that he'll continue to see superior mares. Is he the Flavor du Jour? To a degree, but he's an important young sire who appears poised to fulfill his hype.
I think that you make a good comparison to Arch because they're similar in many ways. Arch was at one time considered by many to be a failed stallion and his fee dropped to $5,000. I brought a lot of client mares to him at $7,500.
Lemon Drop Kid too was very cold to begin his career and his fee fell for a while.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Bernadini has had a couple of Travers winners (not good as Afleet Alex had one of these) a couple of Cigar Mile winners and a Woodward winner, if he is to justify $150,000 I'd like to see a winner of a Triple Crown race/Breeders Cup Classic/Dubai World Cup in every crop.
Oh thats right not the right pedigree, hard to justify the price tag imho.
Only thing we can do is sit back and wait... time will tell.
You did good for your breeders with Arch.
Can't stop loving Lemon Drop Kid, one of my favourite fillys last few years Elusive Kate, LDK is the BM sire - of which he will have a fantastic future as again imho.
Oh thats right not the right pedigree, hard to justify the price tag imho.
Only thing we can do is sit back and wait... time will tell.
You did good for your breeders with Arch.
Can't stop loving Lemon Drop Kid, one of my favourite fillys last few years Elusive Kate, LDK is the BM sire - of which he will have a fantastic future as again imho.
Edited by Moderator
I haven't seen Wilburn either but when he was recommended to me last year for consideration, in part it was because the mare had just had a nice one by Rock Hard Ten and Wilburn is supposed to be a similar physical. I took that to mean really tall something to be checked out before someone sends a tiny mare to him.
Pete wrote:
Bernardini is doing well at stud. He's expensive at $150,000 and he's light on SWs and 2yos but 12 of his 15 SWs are graded (excellent) and most of them are colts so I don't believe that his fee will fall anytime soon. I expect that he'll continue to see superior mares. Is he the Flavor du Jour? To a degree, but he's an important young sire who appears poised to fulfill his hype.
And Darley doesn't have to discount. Medaglia d'Oro has been helped a lot by Violence but he was looking to be a pretty shaky 6 figure proposition going into the fall. I would have been surprised to see the fee go down though because it just doesn't have to the way it will at Claiborne if Blame doesn't come out running.
-
stlouiskid
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:39 pm
- Location: illinois
One thing about Darley, is they will do foal sharing with people if you have a really nice mare. I find them to be very supportive of the industry.
Hey Pete, I always enjoy your posts, any thoughts on who is an undervalued out of favor stallion right now, as in the examples with Arch and Lemon Drop Kid you mentioned were a few years ago? Thanks.
Hey Pete, I always enjoy your posts, any thoughts on who is an undervalued out of favor stallion right now, as in the examples with Arch and Lemon Drop Kid you mentioned were a few years ago? Thanks.
Hi Sysonby,
Rock Hard Ten stuck around for a lot longer than he might have because he was a huge and beautiful specimen. I saw Rock Hard Ten and have only seen pictures of Wilburn but don't see them as similar.
That said, a correct mare might do will with Wilburn.
Nice to see you again.
Regards,
Pete
Rock Hard Ten stuck around for a lot longer than he might have because he was a huge and beautiful specimen. I saw Rock Hard Ten and have only seen pictures of Wilburn but don't see them as similar.
That said, a correct mare might do will with Wilburn.
Nice to see you again.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
-
kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Pete wrote:
Bernardini is doing well at stud. He's expensive at $150,000 and he's light on SWs and 2yos but 12 of his 15 SWs are graded (excellent) and most of them are colts so I don't believe that his fee will fall anytime soon. I expect that he'll continue to see superior mares. Is he the Flavor du Jour? To a degree, but he's an important young sire who appears poised to fulfill his hype.
I think it's difficult to justify Bernardini at $150k when Hard Spun is right down the shedrow at $60k with more stakes winners despite having one fewer crop to race and a third the quality of mares....or for that matter with the superb (and similarly bred) Tapit down the road at $125k. Even Deep Impact stands for less than that (and with horses like Gentildonna and Deep Brilliante in his first crop, off to a better start IMO).
Knock him down to $100k and he's alright. Knock him down to $85k and he's a deal.