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 Post subject: Vekoma
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:40 am 
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A G1 winner, by a G1 winner, out of a G1 winner.
My question- his running style-call it what you will...winging out, egg beater, whatever the heck it looks like....in your opinion will that get passed on?


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:35 pm 
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Typically it has been my experience that paddlers, wingers, etc. can oftentimes outrun the imperfection of their stride, which is the result of offset bones SomeWhere - shoulder, hip, knee, etc. Real Quiet was a pretzel legged horse who was a good example of this. Oftentimes the musculosketel malformation is from a gestational cause, and is not genetic. Other times, it can be heritable, like the "Storm Cat" knees that were famous in that line. It's going to be a case of take a really correct mare with perfect movement to him and try it out - see what you get. The issue with it is that So Very Many with these types of strides don't make it because the irregularities of the bones wear on the ligaments and they just don't stay sound long enough to have much career....

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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:44 pm 
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The Australian hall of famed and household name horse Northerly was frequently described as having a gallop like an egg beater. He ran sound for a long storied career against the likes of Lonhro and Sublime. Didn’t slow him down any.

For breeding value, I think more important than his legs, which as Madelyn pointed out could be how he came from the assembly line, is Candy Ride. He had a short career despite his brilliance. His foals are demonstrably less likely to race, win, and race multiple times compared to others in his age cohort (70% runners/50% winners, vs Tapit with 80/60 and Speightstown at 83/62). For every Gun Runner he has sired, there’s a Mastery or a Valiant Minister. Every bit of suspicion and concern about Unbridled’s Song and soundness also applies to him.

The big question is, is THAT heritable? Vekoma raced fewer times in his three years of training than Gun Runner did as a 3yo. Candy Ride hasn’t had a huge number of stallion sons so it’s hard to say. His best son Twirling Candy doesn’t get 2 year olds, but his older crops are up to 88% runners and 72% winners so he at least is doing okay.


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:35 am 
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There were quite a few Candy Ride sons - they were moved out quickly enough to not be memorable. I had a Sidney's Candy filly who convinced me firmly he was not a sire to be trusted. There was Misremembered, who was forgettable I suspect. I have a daughter of his who might still prove something good but it's been a struggle. We shall see what happens with Gun Runner.

Candy Ride certainly can produce a good racehorse. But perhaps, like Phone Trick, the sons have nothing much to share.

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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:42 am 
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Thank you for your insights, ladies. I hope you have a great 2021!


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:39 pm 
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If I was trying to sell a colt or filly I certainly wouldn't want them to have a walk that showed the sire's action. Just a big turnoff even though as noted, they might run through it. But buying one is another thing. When Vekoma was running I was really concerned there might be something catastrophic happen - his action was so wild even I could see it in a race. Thankfully not so.

On a similar topic, High Tail now at Calumet, had Mongolian Groom break down in the Classic - and he most likely would have placed if he hadn't. Does High Tail have that inherent weakness - or some stride/conformation deficiency? He's had more runners than he should have, given that he hasnt had much opportunity.

jm

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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:22 am 
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Joltman, Mongolian Groom ran 17 times in 2 seasons of racing and the last 13 runs were all 5 weeks apart or less. The horse was in training the entire time. Some of those runs, like the Santa Anita handicap and Charles Town Classic, were only 2 weeks apart. That kind of racing schedule does not suggest a genetically fragile structure—quite the opposite in fact. Being in training for that long without a rest is how stress fractures start, which in horses turns into catastrophic breakdowns exactly like MG had on the track.

There’s a reason that Australian and South American race trainers plan to have horses resting in a paddock at least 2 months out of the year, and letting accumulated issues heal is part of it. European runners have long rests built into their schedules via the racing calendar. North American racing (outside of the western Canadian circuit) tends to run year round with horses migrating from open track to open track, and horses may or may not be spelled in that time.

Mongolian Groom’s genetic sibling Dynatail ran out 36 starts. With so few foals to race, the possibility of random variation in Hightail’s offspring is higher than any statistical signal.


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:47 am 
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madelyn wrote:
There were quite a few Candy Ride sons - they were moved out quickly enough to not be memorable. I had a Sidney's Candy filly who convinced me firmly he was not a sire to be trusted. There was Misremembered, who was forgettable I suspect. I have a daughter of his who might still prove something good but it's been a struggle. We shall see what happens with Gun Runner.


In spite of his brilliance on the track, as I recall Candy Ride was a tough sell at stud in the first few years. It was the success of Sidney’s Candy and Misremembered, whose made lines are productive but not stellar, that kicked him into the upper echelons of the breeding domain. Misremembered’s dam is the only graded stakes winner (other than his dam) in three generations. The rest were restricted, listed, or allowance winners. Twirling Candy’s 4th dam is a full sister to Affirmed (so, quality), but all of the stakes winners in this branch except one are by Candy Ride. The new stallions coming up, like Gun Runner and Vekoma, are from his better-bred crops. The difference in female line quality is striking.


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:06 am 
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kimberley mine wrote:
Joltman, Mongolian Groom ran 17 times in 2 seasons of racing and the last 13 runs were all 5 weeks apart or less. The horse was in training the entire time. Some of those runs, like the Santa Anita handicap and Charles Town Classic, were only 2 weeks apart. That kind of racing schedule does not suggest a genetically fragile structure—quite the opposite in fact. Being in training for that long without a rest is how stress fractures start, which in horses turns into catastrophic breakdowns exactly like MG had on the track.

There’s a reason that Australian and South American race trainers plan to have horses resting in a paddock at least 2 months out of the year, and letting accumulated issues heal is part of it. European runners have long rests built into their schedules via the racing calendar. North American racing (outside of the western Canadian circuit) tends to run year round with horses migrating from open track to open track, and horses may or may not be spelled in that time.

Mongolian Groom’s genetic sibling Dynatail ran out 36 starts. With so few foals to race, the possibility of random variation in Hightail’s offspring is higher than any statistical signal.


Good points all KM - thanks for the input. That Hightail was getting little to go with in Ark means he might get a little better chance now. That BC Classic for MG was a gut wrencher.

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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:40 pm 
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Candy Ride wasn't the word's soundest horse, but it is worth remembering that he actually raced more than his six official starts, having started several times in "country" races as a youngster before actually being sent up to one of Argentina's major tracks---not an uncommon practice there, I understand, due to less stabling space at the major tracks than demand might warrant. Under those circumstances, I guess it makes perfectly good sense to give your youngsters some trial races before tying up a precious stall space at one of the big tracks; you want those spaces for horses that actually have some chance of winning.

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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:43 pm 
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kimberley mine wrote:
madelyn wrote:
There were quite a few Candy Ride sons - they were moved out quickly enough to not be memorable. I had a Sidney's Candy filly who convinced me firmly he was not a sire to be trusted. There was Misremembered, who was forgettable I suspect. I have a daughter of his who might still prove something good but it's been a struggle. We shall see what happens with Gun Runner.


In spite of his brilliance on the track, as I recall Candy Ride was a tough sell at stud in the first few years. It was the success of Sidney’s Candy and Misremembered, whose made lines are productive but not stellar, that kicked him into the upper echelons of the breeding domain. Misremembered’s dam is the only graded stakes winner (other than his dam) in three generations. The rest were restricted, listed, or allowance winners. Twirling Candy’s 4th dam is a full sister to Affirmed (so, quality), but all of the stakes winners in this branch except one are by Candy Ride. The new stallions coming up, like Gun Runner and Vekoma, are from his better-bred crops. The difference in female line quality is striking.


The Craig's were the only ones willing to take a chance and bring him to this country. I never found out the issue with his feet but it was the trainer who thought there might be a way to handle it and they did, albeit for a short time. The hard sell was the bloodline initially but to this day the larger issue with Candy Ride is you can get a small foal and the market doesn't embrace small at the sales. Maybe the mares in the later years have the leg that he lacks and that's helped but it's still a risk that a breeder will take.


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:58 pm 
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Sitting at 45K is NG to Candy Ride. Pay the insurance to convert to live foal and you'd still be far under his advertised fee.

Some really, really good prices at the TCA sale.
Current prices (likely closing as its pretty much over except the live auction.
4,800 Lord Nelson, 2,900 Sharp Azteca, 2,900 Speightster, 800 Tourist, 800 Tale of Ekati, 14,500 Mastery


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:43 pm 
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rudydee wrote:
A G1 winner, by a G1 winner, out of a G1 winner.
My question- his running style-call it what you will...winging out, egg beater, whatever the heck it looks like....in your opinion will that get passed on?


That way of going, whatever you call it looks like a million bucks. One million, four hundred and forty five thousand dollars and five hundred twenty five dollars to be exact. Sounds like those Argentine's who bred Candy Ride know more about TB horses and how to breed them than the wrong side of the river in Kentucky. Claimers who' v never bred a winner, I'd think twice about the advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:32 pm 
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Jeff, you have a category error.

Neither the heritability (or not) of Vekoma's front-end conformation nor the demonstrably true fact that Candy Ride foals are more likely to be unraced than stallions of his peer group has anything to do with either the relative quality and knowledge of US breeders versus Argentinian breeders or the performance of Vekoma (who was born in the US from a distinctly North American mare line).


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 Post subject: Re: Vekoma
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:57 pm 
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Kimberly Mine, I'd say the wrong side of the river in Kentucky is no more classy or prestigious than Oregon or Washington bred. Argentina aside. Give me some Candy.


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