TOP 5 Stallion in California... ANYONE ?

[Picksix]

Just wondering who people thought are the top 5 PROVEN sires for the buck in California and who the top UNPROVEN sires are for the buck ?

Any opinions ?

[Inthe951]

From lines that I have looked into these seem to be more "popular" There are others but that I have looked into.

In Excess
Bertrando
Benchmark
Roar
Memo
Momentum
Atticus
Jackpot
Storm Creek

Some that I think offer some good bloodlines for the money:
(breed to race type)

Bonus Money
Cat Dreams
Definite Edge
Fruition
Game Plan
Muqtarib

hope that helps some.

[fastappy]

Most Bang for your buck!

1) In Excess
2) Unusual Heat
3) Cee's Tizzy
4) Helmsman
5) Bartok
6) Benchmark
7) Lit De Justice
8) Bertrando
9) Iron Cat
10) Western Fame

[Picksix]

Thanks you guys either one of you care to explain more on why you picked who you did ?

Are these in order of your first choice on top and so on ?

How much is In Exess ? Of course he is the leading sire usually is.

Didn't see too many unproven ones in the list how about 6 unproven ones. I like to take a chance on 1st and 2nd crop sires.

Do you think it matters which sire you breed too if you sell or race ?

[Sysonby]

These lists are interesting but you really need to look at your mare first and the mares that produced the sires results. For example, take a look at Cee's Tizzy's stats in the absence of Cees Song. Memo's stats are heavily dependent on about 4 mares of the hundreds he's covered. Some of the other "hot" sires either have very small crops (Bartok before 2002, Unusual Heat, Perfect Mandate) or one big horse (Atticus) who may never repeat again.

Picksix, an unproven sire who is now on the bubble is Skimming. I looked at him, didn't think he matched up well physically with the mare I had in mind, and passed. But Cardiff is pulling out all the stops. They priced him right, he's getting support from the right people, lots of decent mares and you can't deny the quality of his race record. I have my fingers crossed for him because it would be good for the California program.

Another unproven I liked as a racehorse was Joey Franco. However, if Avenue of Flags didn't have enough interest to stay here, it remains to be seen whether a son of Avenue of Flags can be successful.

Reba's Gold is a handsome horse but a son of Slew O Gold? That's got to be a breed to race decision because it would be an experiment.

Golden Eagle has an interesting unproven in High Demand. I understand from credible sources that the babies are exceptional and he did show some talent before he got injured. Golden Eagle is also giving him some real support and that can never hurt a young stallion.

When you look at his race record, Marino Marini has to be the best Storm Cat that has ever stood in California. Basically he was a head away in the Malibu from being a Kentucky stallion. There aren't too many California stallions who can claim that.

[Linda in TX]

Do you think it matters which sire you breed too if you sell or race ?

It matters to me. I use completely different criteria for breeding to sell and breeding to race. I might find, for example, an obscure stallion that matches my mare in every conceivable way for a "breed to race" project, but without the stallion having any commercial value so too the foal would have no monetary value. On the other hand, breeding to sell mandates going to a stallion that is popular (or, in the case of an unproven stallion, will be popular) among buyers.

[aurora]

Add to proven sires / good values:

General Meeting
Beau Genius

[aurora]

Also Siberian Summer if you get a filly

[ef]

Any thoughts on Tribal Rule? Very unsound, but extremely talented. He may be one to look at with the right mare.

[fastappy]

In Excess has been California's Leading sire for the past several years because he consistently throws A class foals every year. 2004 he was de-throned (an aberration)by a dual hemisphere stallion (Roar). He is also becoming a sire of sires (Indian Charlie, Inexcessive Bull, etc. Gibson County & Ex Marks the Cop in the wings) and broodmare sire. For 20-25K he's hard to beat. The Caro line is becoming increasingly influential.

Unusual Heat will most likely become heir to the throne. He's a Kentucky calibre stallion (imo) and is already dominating the Cal. stats with just 30 something runners. I doubt you will get him for 6K next year.

For 3,500 (due in Sep), Helmsman has solid numbers with a median of 23K and avg start of 3K, but lacks the big horse. 16% 2 y.o. winners from foals, and his horses run out through age 5. Pos. AEI vs CI. Will get you a solid runner, but skip the sales ring .

Cee's Tizzy has sired twice B.C. Classic winner Tiznow (foals look great) as well as several other top quality stakes horses. He has consistently maintained a high AEI (nationally ranked) vs CI. That alone deserves 10K if you're going for the big horse and your mare lines up with Relaunch/Lyphard & physical type.

Bartok has an AEI of 1.85 vs CI of 1.08, a avg earnings per start of 4k (very good), but has 13% wins from starts and lacks sufficient stakes winners. The good news is he's very solid at 4k, given the mares he's bred. He throw both turf & dirt and 19% 2 y.o. winners from foals.

All of these stallions are hampered with California's poor sales figures for yearlings in general and attacking them on that basis is really not justified because we are a regional market (exception being 2 y.o.s).

[Inthe951]

Thanks you guys either one of you care to explain more on why you picked who you did ?

I breed to race. For one I cant justify the higher stud fees hoping for a sale horse. It seems in CA its the rare few that will hit big money unless they already are running....and heck if they are fast they will command money no matter who they are by.... So I am trying to match successful bloodlines that cross with my mare.

Are these in order of your first choice on top and so on ?

not mine, just listed the few that came to mind

Didn't see too many unproven ones in the list how about 6 unproven ones. I like to take a chance on 1st and 2nd crop sires.

I dont know but in my research you either go with what is hot and new or what is proven. But again the new ones I listed are the breed to race type. I agree with what the other poster stated on Mario Marini...but he isnt cheap.

Do you think it matters which sire you breed too if you sell or race ?

Very much so....If breeding to sell you are breeding based on a perception. A so called "hot" sire but you will usually have to pay for it too. If breeding to race you are breeding to what seems to make a runner that will win. I like to reference Bonus Money on this. I think given his less then quality mares he has produced some nice winners. When breed to a nice mare you should be able to make some money. But he isnt popular and at a sale for a weanling or yearling they wouldnt bring much. Thats not to say will a steller time as a 2yr old it may bring something. If breeding to sell I would go with In Excess.....well known even outside California.

[Sysonby]

Cee's Tizzy has sired twice B.C. Classic winner Tiznow (foals look great) as well as several other top quality stakes horses. He has consistently maintained a high AEI (nationally ranked) vs CI. That alone deserves 10K if you're going for the big horse and your mare lines up with Relaunch/Lyphard & physical type.

Actually, if you are truly going for the homerun, I'd shy away from Cee's Tizzy unless you happened to own Cees Song. Here's another stat about Cee's Tizzy that I think puts it all in perspective: according to Brisnet, his 280 runners have earned $24.1 million--which by itself looks marvelous. However 2 of those 280 runners earned 9.2 million of it or 38 % of all earnings by a Cee's Tizzy--and they were full brothers.

In comparison, In Excess has sired the winners of $23 million and his leading two (unrelated) earners totalled $1.8 million or 7 %.

Superficially their stats look similar, but they are not the same caliber sire IMO. In Excess will get you the big horse much more readily--that is assuming that they will stand training and actually start.

[fastappy]

Cee's Tizzy is 10K and In Excess is 25K, a significant difference. I still maintain that Cee's Tizzy is worth the money because he can get you a top calibre stakes horse. As you can see I placed In Excess at the top of my list. I don't compare the two stallions side by side, because there is a significant differenence in stud fees, representative of their performance at stud.

As for unproven stallions, I'm of the opinion that no poor boy/girl (aka small breeder) should be trying to prove a richman's (or woman's) stallion. If you are breeding to sell and, A) you are in a commercial market, B) have a mare that will catalogue well, & C) you breed to a commercial 1st or 2nd year stallion you can do very well. If you live in California neither A) nor C) apply to you.

As for unproven stallions, should you decide to go that way, Skimming, would be my top choice. Though 85% of stallions will prove to be failures, I believe Skimming has the best chance for success, based on his strong inbreeding, his race record, his family, and that most important intangible, "heart".

[Coquinerie]

What about Rhythm and Truckee? Probably the two best bred stallions in California along with Roar.

Rhythm seems to get later maturing types but after being shuffled around all over he's starting to improve on his mares and they seem to run long.

Truckee has had nothing to speak of in mare quality and yet, he's not improving them as well. I think Truckee is one people should look at it. Classy speed.

[louis finochio]

I love Unusual Heat, his foals can do it all. Sprint, Distance, Turf, Dirt, Soundness, and moved his medicore mares up the class ladder.

I talked to Barry Abrams, owner of UH about the poor class of mares that were bred to UH. I asked Barry when UH would be bred to a better class of mares.

Barry told me the last to years UH has been bred to the better class of mares, and Barry is looking forward to those foals come to the races.

UH is by Nureyev which is a big plus for the quality superior runners that UH has been producing.

I will be watching Skimming, by Nureyev to see if Skimming makes it as a sire. As Calif. needs more quality stallions in their breeding program.