Is Lemon Drop Kid a broodmare sire of the future? Its way too early to tell but with the good mares he has been bred to and his exceptional pedigree I think he has a chance to be a very good broodmare sire. Kingmambo is a great sire and a good broodmare sire. Lemon Drop Kid is a champion and a classic winner. His broodmare sire is Triple Crown winner Seattle Slew. His dam Charming Lassie is a half sister to Weekend Surprise the dam of A.P. Indy, Summer Squall, and Honor Grades. In the first 3 generations you have mares Lassie Dear, Miesque, Pasadoble, and My Charmer along with sires Kingmambo, Mr. Prospector, Nureyev, Seattle Slew, and Buckpasser. Lemon Drop Kids
4th dam is Missy Baba. Lemon Drop Kid's third dam Gay Missile is by Sir Gaylord who is out Somethingroyal. On his sires side you have Special the dam of Nureyev and Natalma the dam of Northern Dancer. In 5 generations you have Triple Crown winners Seattle Slew, Count Fleet, and War Admiral as well as multiple classic winners Northern Dancer and Nashua along with a full sister to Triple Crown winner Assault. Lemon Drop Kid should do well as a broodmare sire but who knows because it is too early to tell.
Keith
Lemon Drop Kid-Broodmare Sire of the Future?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
I have never been a fan of Lemon Drop Kid as a sire. He was a very talented racehorse but never did anything jawdropping or even anything that made him look really all that special. He has had some incredible books which in alot of cases makes a broodmare sire in itself but his lack of abilty to be a decent sire of racehorses is enough for me now as his fillies are still way out of my price range anyway. I may be in the minority for my opinions on Seattle Slew but its just hard for me to find where he fits in the big picture. So with Lemon Drop Kid being a future broodmare sire I just think he has to prove he can be somewhat of a sire first esp with the opportunity he has been given before we think of him as a broodmare sire & not just be a filler spot in future pedigrees based on the class of the bottom half of the pedigrees of his mares.
hi Keith
Hard to imagine that Lemon Drop Kid wouldn't be a wonderful broodmare sire.
That being said...I expect we haven't seen the tip of the iceberg yet as to the best he's capable of getting as a racehorse sire. Regardless...even if he's not much in that category (as TomFool seems to suggest) he could be another Alysheba...or possibly better. A sire...some of whose daughters have proven to be quite special in the production category...despite his lack of prowess as a top-class racehorse sire.
I wouldn't write Lemon Drop Kid (G1 winner at 2, 3 and 4...and Champion Older Male at age 4) off yet...I'm not so sure that the best is not yet to come...although certainly he hasn't raised many eyebrows to date.
Respectfully
Hard to imagine that Lemon Drop Kid wouldn't be a wonderful broodmare sire.
That being said...I expect we haven't seen the tip of the iceberg yet as to the best he's capable of getting as a racehorse sire. Regardless...even if he's not much in that category (as TomFool seems to suggest) he could be another Alysheba...or possibly better. A sire...some of whose daughters have proven to be quite special in the production category...despite his lack of prowess as a top-class racehorse sire.
I wouldn't write Lemon Drop Kid (G1 winner at 2, 3 and 4...and Champion Older Male at age 4) off yet...I'm not so sure that the best is not yet to come...although certainly he hasn't raised many eyebrows to date.
Respectfully
Late in 1998 (@early November) stories were swirling about Kingmambo leaving Lane's End, being sold to Japaneese interests or at least taking a severe fee cut from his $35,000. A beautifully bred, small Kingmambo filly went through the November Mixed sale for $7,000.
That November sale was the nadir for Kingmambo. Within a month, El Condor Pasa (JPN) and Lemon Drop Kid emerged as major stakes winners for him and the rest is history.
Lemon Drop Kid's own racing aptitude (distance / dirt) isn't what his sire is noted for and that may make be making a difference. He may yet prove to be a sire of note, but he'd better get started soon.
Alysheba's a rarity, a failed stallion who has had success through his daughters - based on their quality. His books were extraordinary and that has shown through, but that's not always the case. Generally the best sires make good broodmare sires - partially a product of being bred to quality books. Inferior sires are far more hit and miss as broodmare sires.
Keith, if you're looking at Lemon Drop Kid daughters for potential broodmares because of his pedigree and that of the mares he was bred to I'd make a few comments.
As good as LDKid's book was, it's the individual mating that's important. As wonderful a broodmare sire as Buckpasser was, not all of his daughters were priceless or had the same value.
If I were looking for a stallion that might have some bargain broodmare prospects out there, (in a similar vein to what I believe you're proposing wityh Lemon Drop Kid), I'd start with Coronado's Quest. Sold perhaps too early, Coronado's Quest had wonderful books and his daughters, even well bred ones, have been sold inexpensively the past year or two. I think you'll see a few more of them. He also ended up with some decent runners.
An interesting phenomenon with younger stallions that are having success but don't yet have many (any) foals racing through their daughters is that the daughters are often available at bargain prices. Once the daughters start getting good runners, the opportunities will dry up.
Regards,
Pete
That November sale was the nadir for Kingmambo. Within a month, El Condor Pasa (JPN) and Lemon Drop Kid emerged as major stakes winners for him and the rest is history.
Lemon Drop Kid's own racing aptitude (distance / dirt) isn't what his sire is noted for and that may make be making a difference. He may yet prove to be a sire of note, but he'd better get started soon.
Alysheba's a rarity, a failed stallion who has had success through his daughters - based on their quality. His books were extraordinary and that has shown through, but that's not always the case. Generally the best sires make good broodmare sires - partially a product of being bred to quality books. Inferior sires are far more hit and miss as broodmare sires.
Keith, if you're looking at Lemon Drop Kid daughters for potential broodmares because of his pedigree and that of the mares he was bred to I'd make a few comments.
As good as LDKid's book was, it's the individual mating that's important. As wonderful a broodmare sire as Buckpasser was, not all of his daughters were priceless or had the same value.
If I were looking for a stallion that might have some bargain broodmare prospects out there, (in a similar vein to what I believe you're proposing wityh Lemon Drop Kid), I'd start with Coronado's Quest. Sold perhaps too early, Coronado's Quest had wonderful books and his daughters, even well bred ones, have been sold inexpensively the past year or two. I think you'll see a few more of them. He also ended up with some decent runners.
An interesting phenomenon with younger stallions that are having success but don't yet have many (any) foals racing through their daughters is that the daughters are often available at bargain prices. Once the daughters start getting good runners, the opportunities will dry up.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
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Coquinerie
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Its funny you mention Coronado's Quest, Pete. I too look for unfashionable or unproven stallions who I think will leave a lasting mark as a broodmare sire and Coronado's Quest is in my top 4 for that list. My fillies Chitchat Chitchat and Coquinerie were both acquired, partially using this strategy... Sahm and Arch are their sires and companion mates on that list with CQ.
Hi Coke,
A little detective work can pay dividends in getting some good values with broodmare prospects from up and coming stallions.
New stallions that don't have (early) success with their foals yet were bred to superior books often have some good broodmare prospects that offer excellent value. On the other hand, don't blindly follow the statistics where some of these stallions get off to exceptional starts as broodmare sires only to moderate when their less well bred daughters start having their foals run.
As much as I venerate him, Spectacular Bid's success as a broodmare sire is directly attributable to his superior books when he was first sent to stud. His figures have moderated over the past 5 years and will continue to do so. The bottom line is a well bred Spectacular Bid mare can be a good producer but not all of his mares will be.
Alysheba leveraged his superb books into a strong start as a broodmare sire. His lack of success as a sire will mean that there won't be a great deal of his daughters from more ordinary mares, but look for him to moderate over the next decade too. Again, he's already proven that the right daughter can be a strong producer.
Hips #38, Shebane (i/f Forest Wildcat on a 5/7 cover - $220,000) and #1887 Sweet Betsy (i/f Buddha on a 3/6 cover - $40,000) were in the Keeneland Mixed Nov. 2004 sale and are both 1996 Alysheba mares with potential. One is overpriced, the other a real value.
Some sires, like Tunerup are head scratchers. Their daughters are everything their sire was not. Wavering Monarch is to a lesser extent. Look for the young broodmare sire whose daughters are getting the good horses, not just restricted stakes winners (like Wavering Monarch).
It's rare, but I like to see a different pattern if I can find it. Silver Deputy began his career as an inexpensive stallion in Canada. He was bred to ordinary mares and already, from these 'ordinary' mares, his daughters have been exceptional producers (high AEI vs. CI and over 20 SWs). The daughters that are making this solid record for him are NOT the well bred KY mares that he has been bred to for the last 6 years or so. I expect him to be a leading broodmare sire soon.
Look at Cozzene and Kris S. as examples of sires that moved from $5,000 and $3,500 fees respectively to profound success as stallions but who are still moving uphill with their success as broodmare sires because of largely plain books in their first 5 or 6 crops.
Dixieland Band (1), Strawberry Road (1), Quiet American (2), Polish Numbers (2), Not For Love (1), Meadowlake (2) and Silver Deputy (0) have been some of my targets in the last few years (# in parenthesis=# purchased). I would have included Saint Ballado had I found any I liked, but his early crops were with some very plain pedigree mares.
You can make some assumptions about the direction that a broodmare sire's numbers will take - especially if they have a change in the quality of their book (that indicates the direction). Mr. Prospector was a superior sire in his Florida crops, but a sensation as a broodmare sire only when his KY crops impacted. Deputy Minister and Danzig came on huge when their better bred daughters impacted.
I now am looking for Elusive Quality, was looking for Holy Bull (his well bred early crops) before his success this year (price) and Kingmambo's fee has escalated so steadily that his mares were too high priced (I'm using these as examples).
Regards,
Pete
A little detective work can pay dividends in getting some good values with broodmare prospects from up and coming stallions.
New stallions that don't have (early) success with their foals yet were bred to superior books often have some good broodmare prospects that offer excellent value. On the other hand, don't blindly follow the statistics where some of these stallions get off to exceptional starts as broodmare sires only to moderate when their less well bred daughters start having their foals run.
As much as I venerate him, Spectacular Bid's success as a broodmare sire is directly attributable to his superior books when he was first sent to stud. His figures have moderated over the past 5 years and will continue to do so. The bottom line is a well bred Spectacular Bid mare can be a good producer but not all of his mares will be.
Alysheba leveraged his superb books into a strong start as a broodmare sire. His lack of success as a sire will mean that there won't be a great deal of his daughters from more ordinary mares, but look for him to moderate over the next decade too. Again, he's already proven that the right daughter can be a strong producer.
Hips #38, Shebane (i/f Forest Wildcat on a 5/7 cover - $220,000) and #1887 Sweet Betsy (i/f Buddha on a 3/6 cover - $40,000) were in the Keeneland Mixed Nov. 2004 sale and are both 1996 Alysheba mares with potential. One is overpriced, the other a real value.
Some sires, like Tunerup are head scratchers. Their daughters are everything their sire was not. Wavering Monarch is to a lesser extent. Look for the young broodmare sire whose daughters are getting the good horses, not just restricted stakes winners (like Wavering Monarch).
It's rare, but I like to see a different pattern if I can find it. Silver Deputy began his career as an inexpensive stallion in Canada. He was bred to ordinary mares and already, from these 'ordinary' mares, his daughters have been exceptional producers (high AEI vs. CI and over 20 SWs). The daughters that are making this solid record for him are NOT the well bred KY mares that he has been bred to for the last 6 years or so. I expect him to be a leading broodmare sire soon.
Look at Cozzene and Kris S. as examples of sires that moved from $5,000 and $3,500 fees respectively to profound success as stallions but who are still moving uphill with their success as broodmare sires because of largely plain books in their first 5 or 6 crops.
Dixieland Band (1), Strawberry Road (1), Quiet American (2), Polish Numbers (2), Not For Love (1), Meadowlake (2) and Silver Deputy (0) have been some of my targets in the last few years (# in parenthesis=# purchased). I would have included Saint Ballado had I found any I liked, but his early crops were with some very plain pedigree mares.
You can make some assumptions about the direction that a broodmare sire's numbers will take - especially if they have a change in the quality of their book (that indicates the direction). Mr. Prospector was a superior sire in his Florida crops, but a sensation as a broodmare sire only when his KY crops impacted. Deputy Minister and Danzig came on huge when their better bred daughters impacted.
I now am looking for Elusive Quality, was looking for Holy Bull (his well bred early crops) before his success this year (price) and Kingmambo's fee has escalated so steadily that his mares were too high priced (I'm using these as examples).
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Pete wrote:
It's rare, but I like to see a different pattern if I can find it. Silver Deputy began his career as an inexpensive stallion in Canada. He was bred to ordinary mares and already, from these 'ordinary' mares, his daughters have been exceptional producers (high AEI vs. CI and over 20 SWs). The daughters that are making this solid record for him are NOT the well bred KY mares that he has been bred to for the last 6 years or so. I expect him to be a leading broodmare sire soon.
How much of that do you attribute to the influence of Deputy Minister? I always like seeing him as the broodmare sire and another son French Deputy is showing very early glimmerings with only 7 horses to race so far, 6 winners, 3 SWs, and 1 graded SW despite being bred to fairly ordinary sires (Matty G, You and I, Bold Badgett, Joyeaux Danseur as examples).
hi Pete
You wrote "Mr. Prospector was a superior sire in his Florida crops, but a sensation as a broodmare sire only when his KY crops impacted."
I suggest that the word only may be a bit of an overstatement Pete...to the extent that when Mr Prospector moved to Ky he was still a very young sire...and many of the daughters he sired while standing in Florida were just beginning their careers as broodmares when Mr Prospector moved to Claiborne.
Reality is that MANY of those broodmares (produced while Mr Prospector stood in Florida) became exceptional producers...such as Gold Beauty (dam of Dayjur)...Madame Gold (dam of 4-SW's including Mighty, Mr Doubledown etc)...Silver Valley (dam of Silver Deputy) etc etc after their dad moved to the Bluegrass State.
Mr Prospector was an extremely prepotent sire and whether the female families of his daughters were knee-deep in blueblood, or from what might be referred to as 'weak' families shallow on quality and/or of little consequence...Mr Prospector was a HUGE success as a broodmare sire...including many of his early daughters.
Certainly his runners (and daughters) that resulted from the Phipps, Claiborne, and their clients' support ignited even more enormous market appeal...but Mr Prospector's success as a sire, broodmare sire, sire of sires etc etc etc was not only related to his opportunities in the bluegrass.
He was a GREAT one...and NOTHING was going to stop him...regardless of quality of opportunities.
As a matter of interest...Mr Prospector was a "sensation" (your word) prior to his move from Florida, up I-75 to KY. While standing his last year in Florida (at Aisco Farm) his stud fee was $10,000 up-front NG plus $15,000 live foal stand and nurse. Despite his advertised stud fee...seasons were being traded at $40,000 up-front NG plus $40,000 live foal stand and nurse. Mr Prospector was clearly a "sensation" before he left Florida (and rightfully so)...but $500,000 per share was simply too much for many shareholders to ignore (the cash figure offered by Peter Brandt for each outstanding share...to move the horse to Ky).
Certainly Mr Prospector's daughters became quite the commodities (and sometimes seemed to be horded) as the years passed...but be assured, many were being handled more as commodities than broodmares even prior to his exit to Kentucky.
Best to you.
Respectfully
You wrote "Mr. Prospector was a superior sire in his Florida crops, but a sensation as a broodmare sire only when his KY crops impacted."
I suggest that the word only may be a bit of an overstatement Pete...to the extent that when Mr Prospector moved to Ky he was still a very young sire...and many of the daughters he sired while standing in Florida were just beginning their careers as broodmares when Mr Prospector moved to Claiborne.
Reality is that MANY of those broodmares (produced while Mr Prospector stood in Florida) became exceptional producers...such as Gold Beauty (dam of Dayjur)...Madame Gold (dam of 4-SW's including Mighty, Mr Doubledown etc)...Silver Valley (dam of Silver Deputy) etc etc after their dad moved to the Bluegrass State.
Mr Prospector was an extremely prepotent sire and whether the female families of his daughters were knee-deep in blueblood, or from what might be referred to as 'weak' families shallow on quality and/or of little consequence...Mr Prospector was a HUGE success as a broodmare sire...including many of his early daughters.
Certainly his runners (and daughters) that resulted from the Phipps, Claiborne, and their clients' support ignited even more enormous market appeal...but Mr Prospector's success as a sire, broodmare sire, sire of sires etc etc etc was not only related to his opportunities in the bluegrass.
He was a GREAT one...and NOTHING was going to stop him...regardless of quality of opportunities.
As a matter of interest...Mr Prospector was a "sensation" (your word) prior to his move from Florida, up I-75 to KY. While standing his last year in Florida (at Aisco Farm) his stud fee was $10,000 up-front NG plus $15,000 live foal stand and nurse. Despite his advertised stud fee...seasons were being traded at $40,000 up-front NG plus $40,000 live foal stand and nurse. Mr Prospector was clearly a "sensation" before he left Florida (and rightfully so)...but $500,000 per share was simply too much for many shareholders to ignore (the cash figure offered by Peter Brandt for each outstanding share...to move the horse to Ky).
Certainly Mr Prospector's daughters became quite the commodities (and sometimes seemed to be horded) as the years passed...but be assured, many were being handled more as commodities than broodmares even prior to his exit to Kentucky.
Best to you.
Respectfully
hi Sysonby
Deputy Minister is a wonderful (and important) broodmare sire...but if you'd ever seen Deputy Minister on the end of a leadshank...then scrutinized Silver Deputy...you might conclude that Silver Deputy's broodmare sire (Mr Prospector) might very well have injected a stronger influence on Silver Deputy than his sire (Deputy Minister).
Regardless who's the stronger influence...I find it difficult to argue against Pete's conclusion (re: Silver Deputy) that "(he) expect(s) him to be a leading broodmare sire soon."
Respectfully
Deputy Minister is a wonderful (and important) broodmare sire...but if you'd ever seen Deputy Minister on the end of a leadshank...then scrutinized Silver Deputy...you might conclude that Silver Deputy's broodmare sire (Mr Prospector) might very well have injected a stronger influence on Silver Deputy than his sire (Deputy Minister).
Regardless who's the stronger influence...I find it difficult to argue against Pete's conclusion (re: Silver Deputy) that "(he) expect(s) him to be a leading broodmare sire soon."
Respectfully
Hi Sysonby,
Very astute observation.
You've pointed out another angle that I've not fully utilized myself that should be a premium tool for evaluating new broodmare sires – especially when they have only a few racing age foals from their daughters, but also to be used as an averaging tool later on. What sires have the early daughters have been bred to for a specific broodmare sire.
I wasn't aware that French Deputy was off to such a strong start, but I am NOT surprised in the least. He has a pedigree and siring profile very similar to Silver Deputy and his success should be anticipated
I wrote the words 'as examples' specifically because there are several other young stallions that I am following.
French Deputy and Dehere are leaders on my list while Awesome Again is not as high because he lacks the consistency that Silver Deputy, French Deputy and Dehere have all shown to move their mares up. Awesome Again is more brilliant (at his best), but he’s had strong books and gets a low percentage of winners. I’ve been the under bidder on so many Silver Deputy mares that I’ve about given up on getting one (I also look for specific qualities so not every one is a target).
Deputy Minister plays a very important role. His sire, Vice Regent, is a rare son of Northern Dancer in North America because he was successful and is totally free of Teddy. Northern Dancer and Native Dancer sire lines have developed a very successful pattern with Teddy blood, once introduced, bring it back again and again. Failure to do so or overloading the Teddy blood can have some unusual results. Balance the blood. Deputy Minister has an initial 3 strains of Teddy and all of his sons mentioned here have an additional 3 to 6 strains brought back.
Interesting that Regal Classic, a son of Vice Regent free of Teddy, yet virtually all of his stakes winners have several strains of Teddy – mostly gained through Sir Gallahad.
I would make a hypothesis that having skipped a generation before Teddy was added has made Vice Regent’s line compatible with lines like Raise A Native and Mr. Prospector that have been built off this distinct pattern for a longer period of time.
Yes, Deputy Commander, Open Forum, Salt Lake and Yarrow Brae all have this pattern and Victory Speech was overloaded with Teddy (getting an additional 9 strains).
I use the examples of Teddy influence often because it’s a prevalent and proven pattern that I consider to be more important in selecting sires than inbreeding. I believe that breeders would be better served if they paid attention to the blood that they are bringing to the mating rather than the names in a pedigree.
Kudos on pointing out a very good tool for analyzing young broodmare sires.
Regards,
Pete
Very astute observation.
You've pointed out another angle that I've not fully utilized myself that should be a premium tool for evaluating new broodmare sires – especially when they have only a few racing age foals from their daughters, but also to be used as an averaging tool later on. What sires have the early daughters have been bred to for a specific broodmare sire.
I wasn't aware that French Deputy was off to such a strong start, but I am NOT surprised in the least. He has a pedigree and siring profile very similar to Silver Deputy and his success should be anticipated
I wrote the words 'as examples' specifically because there are several other young stallions that I am following.
French Deputy and Dehere are leaders on my list while Awesome Again is not as high because he lacks the consistency that Silver Deputy, French Deputy and Dehere have all shown to move their mares up. Awesome Again is more brilliant (at his best), but he’s had strong books and gets a low percentage of winners. I’ve been the under bidder on so many Silver Deputy mares that I’ve about given up on getting one (I also look for specific qualities so not every one is a target).
Deputy Minister plays a very important role. His sire, Vice Regent, is a rare son of Northern Dancer in North America because he was successful and is totally free of Teddy. Northern Dancer and Native Dancer sire lines have developed a very successful pattern with Teddy blood, once introduced, bring it back again and again. Failure to do so or overloading the Teddy blood can have some unusual results. Balance the blood. Deputy Minister has an initial 3 strains of Teddy and all of his sons mentioned here have an additional 3 to 6 strains brought back.
Interesting that Regal Classic, a son of Vice Regent free of Teddy, yet virtually all of his stakes winners have several strains of Teddy – mostly gained through Sir Gallahad.
I would make a hypothesis that having skipped a generation before Teddy was added has made Vice Regent’s line compatible with lines like Raise A Native and Mr. Prospector that have been built off this distinct pattern for a longer period of time.
Yes, Deputy Commander, Open Forum, Salt Lake and Yarrow Brae all have this pattern and Victory Speech was overloaded with Teddy (getting an additional 9 strains).
I use the examples of Teddy influence often because it’s a prevalent and proven pattern that I consider to be more important in selecting sires than inbreeding. I believe that breeders would be better served if they paid attention to the blood that they are bringing to the mating rather than the names in a pedigree.
Kudos on pointing out a very good tool for analyzing young broodmare sires.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
I think Lemond Drop Kid should be a nice broodmare sire
Interesting Lemon Drop Kid is the sire of a Kentucky Oaks winner and he should be a good broodmare sire.
Keith
Keith