Are Montjeu and El Prado better than both Giant's Causeway and Fusaichi Pegasus? El Prado has been a leading sire and a top 3 sire three years in a row. Montjeu three year olds have been dominating Europe and you see Giant's Causeway and Fusaichi Pegasus stud fees rising every month. Giant's Causeway and Fusaichi Pegasus have been bred to the best mares in the world . The dynamic duo of Sadler's Wells sons El Prado and Montjeu as sires should be interesting especially if Kitten's Joy runs in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. Fusaichi Pegasus and Giant's Causeway are becoming great sires but aren't their stud fees getting ridiculous?
Keith
Montjeu and El Prado-better than Giant's Causeway and FuPeg?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
hi Keith
BE ASSURED that...All Things Considered...MANY sires (both young and old) are FAR BETTER than Giant's Causeway and Fusaichi Pegasus...not just the two you reference (young sire Montjeu whose first crop is just 3-yo's of 2005...and superior sire El Prado, with his 10th crop being 2-yo's of 2005).
Both Giant's Causeway and Fusaichi Pegasus have arguably been given more and better opportunity than most (if not all) young stallions in (at the very least) recent history. And of these two (as many might agree) the quantity and quality of opportunity that GC has been the beneficiary of suggests that his opportunity has been unprecendented in the history of the thoroughbred breed.
Respectfully...ALL THINGS CONSIDERED...it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that both Fusaichi Pegasus and (even moreso) Giant's Causeway lean more in the direction of failure (or at the very least disappointment) than in the direction of success (at least so far). Both stallions are being HEAVILY advertised and marketed in an effort to offset the reality of their lack of accomplishment when compared to their HUGE opportunities (both quantity and quality-wise etc). ALL THINGS CONSIDERED...many might agree that their jacked-up stud fees seem to be ridiculously-out-of-line.
In the case of El Prado he has defined himself as the Real-Deal...and Montjeu is clearly an Outstanding young sire as reflected not only by the Top-class G1 winners and front-page super-stars he's already sired (that promise to be going on to even greater heights and reknown)...but also by his general stats...percentages etc (in relation to his crop sizes, opportunities etc).
El Prado is NO PRETENDER...and Montjeu has proven already that he is a VERY SPECIAL young sire. He has yet to prove what he will be over the long-term (but he's certainly made a strong case for himself that he has it in him to be Very Special). Regardless...WOW...what a start.
As for FP and GC...anyone can spend their money if they believe those two guys are worth $150,000+- and $200,000+- respectfully. I suggest the line will be short if serious downward stud fee adjustments are not implemented and/or incredible surges (instead of rationalizations and/or spin, hype etc whatever) in their general performances (as sires) do not occur to support their currently ridiculous North American stud fee levels.
Let's get real here...for 2005, El Prado at US$100,000 and Montjeu at approx E45,000 (Euros) appeared to be gifts when compared to Fusaichi Pegasus and Giant's Causeway at their respective (and jacked-up) $150,000+- (OUCH) and $200,000+- (OUCH) stud fees. Ridiculous.
Respectfully
BE ASSURED that...All Things Considered...MANY sires (both young and old) are FAR BETTER than Giant's Causeway and Fusaichi Pegasus...not just the two you reference (young sire Montjeu whose first crop is just 3-yo's of 2005...and superior sire El Prado, with his 10th crop being 2-yo's of 2005).
Both Giant's Causeway and Fusaichi Pegasus have arguably been given more and better opportunity than most (if not all) young stallions in (at the very least) recent history. And of these two (as many might agree) the quantity and quality of opportunity that GC has been the beneficiary of suggests that his opportunity has been unprecendented in the history of the thoroughbred breed.
Respectfully...ALL THINGS CONSIDERED...it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that both Fusaichi Pegasus and (even moreso) Giant's Causeway lean more in the direction of failure (or at the very least disappointment) than in the direction of success (at least so far). Both stallions are being HEAVILY advertised and marketed in an effort to offset the reality of their lack of accomplishment when compared to their HUGE opportunities (both quantity and quality-wise etc). ALL THINGS CONSIDERED...many might agree that their jacked-up stud fees seem to be ridiculously-out-of-line.
In the case of El Prado he has defined himself as the Real-Deal...and Montjeu is clearly an Outstanding young sire as reflected not only by the Top-class G1 winners and front-page super-stars he's already sired (that promise to be going on to even greater heights and reknown)...but also by his general stats...percentages etc (in relation to his crop sizes, opportunities etc).
El Prado is NO PRETENDER...and Montjeu has proven already that he is a VERY SPECIAL young sire. He has yet to prove what he will be over the long-term (but he's certainly made a strong case for himself that he has it in him to be Very Special). Regardless...WOW...what a start.
As for FP and GC...anyone can spend their money if they believe those two guys are worth $150,000+- and $200,000+- respectfully. I suggest the line will be short if serious downward stud fee adjustments are not implemented and/or incredible surges (instead of rationalizations and/or spin, hype etc whatever) in their general performances (as sires) do not occur to support their currently ridiculous North American stud fee levels.
Let's get real here...for 2005, El Prado at US$100,000 and Montjeu at approx E45,000 (Euros) appeared to be gifts when compared to Fusaichi Pegasus and Giant's Causeway at their respective (and jacked-up) $150,000+- (OUCH) and $200,000+- (OUCH) stud fees. Ridiculous.
Respectfully
El Prado is a very good stallion. Is he worth $100K? Not a chance. He can get you a solid stakes horse, but his list of grade one horses is sorely lacking, especially considering he has 600 foals to race so far. At least Giants Causeway has shown the ability to produce grade one horses, and has I believe 5 in his first crop. That is what those who are paying those stud fees are looking for, the grade one winning colt who will have value as a stallion. El Prado can't do that.
For your information, Montjeu had over 80 foals in his first crop. Hurricane Run, Motivator, and Scorpion are all out of top class mares. Hurricane Run's dam, is a stakes placed half sister to 5 stakes winners that are all group class, 4 which are Group 1's; Motivator is out of a stakes winner by Gone West, and Scorpion is a half brother to 3 other stakes winners, one which is Grade 2 winner of over $500,000, Memories. Of his other stakes winners, Stagelight, who won the U.A.E. 2000 Guineas, is a half brother to 4 Group caliber stakes winners, Walk In The Park, who was second in the Derby, is out of a Irish Two Thousand Guuineas (Gr. 1) winner. Id say Montjeu has had plenty of opportunity. Thats not to say that he hasnt done well in his first crop, but to say he didnt have much opportunity is a joke. He had every bit as good of mares as Giants Causeway did.
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Coquinerie
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just out of curiosity FOS, what exactly does Giant's Causeway *have* to do to earn respect in your book? As Halo has said, he's sired 5 G1 winners in his first crop... so he had a large crop, so what... he had great mares... yeah and so does every other top stallion in the world. AP Indy has the best book of proven producers in the world and has he ever had a year where he sired close to 5 G1 winners? I know how much you love Indy and a few of his sons.
Make the argument all you want about quality over quantity... but even with all the quantity, the quality is shining through. I dont know what you expected, but to expect MORE than what he's done is putting him in a position to fail in your mind... with no chance of meeting *your* expectations and whats worse is you go out of your way to condemn a horse who has sired such talented runners... amazing.
No, I wouldnt breed to him... he's not my "type" of stallion, but that DOES NOT mean he's not worth the price to owners in the top end of the market who want a huge bang for their buck... just like every high stud fee... its the PROMISE of what MAY happen... and he's delivered it more than any stallion this year. Disappointment... hardly. Your opinion... absurdly biased and its been showing more and more after every one of his offspring have won.
And by the way, El Prado, love him, but far from gaining the right as a very top tier stallion with what he's thrown thus far. He's priced right, maybe even slightly higher than he should be in my opinion. His foals dont sell THAT well and many of the runners are average IF best.
Make the argument all you want about quality over quantity... but even with all the quantity, the quality is shining through. I dont know what you expected, but to expect MORE than what he's done is putting him in a position to fail in your mind... with no chance of meeting *your* expectations and whats worse is you go out of your way to condemn a horse who has sired such talented runners... amazing.
No, I wouldnt breed to him... he's not my "type" of stallion, but that DOES NOT mean he's not worth the price to owners in the top end of the market who want a huge bang for their buck... just like every high stud fee... its the PROMISE of what MAY happen... and he's delivered it more than any stallion this year. Disappointment... hardly. Your opinion... absurdly biased and its been showing more and more after every one of his offspring have won.
And by the way, El Prado, love him, but far from gaining the right as a very top tier stallion with what he's thrown thus far. He's priced right, maybe even slightly higher than he should be in my opinion. His foals dont sell THAT well and many of the runners are average IF best.
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Coquinerie
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halo wrote:For your information, Montjeu had over 80 foals in his first crop. Hurricane Run, Motivator, and Scorpion are all out of top class mares. Hurricane Run's dam, is a stakes placed half sister to 5 stakes winners that are all group class, 4 which are Group 1's; Motivator is out of a stakes winner by Gone West, and Scorpion is a half brother to 3 other stakes winners, one which is Grade 2 winner of over $500,000, Memories. Of his other stakes winners, Stagelight, who won the U.A.E. 2000 Guineas, is a half brother to 4 Group caliber stakes winners, Walk In The Park, who was second in the Derby, is out of a Irish Two Thousand Guuineas (Gr. 1) winner. Id say Montjeu has had plenty of opportunity. Thats not to say that he hasnt done well in his first crop, but to say he didnt have much opportunity is a joke. He had every bit as good of mares as Giants Causeway did.
Amen... its not like Montjeu made stakes winners out of donkeys. Oppurtunity was there and he made the best of it... just as Giant's Causeway has done. Give accolades when they're due... 5 G1 winners from a first crop... deserves some applause!
I said he had 5 Grade 1 horses, not winners, which are exactly 3 grade 1 winners, 2 grade 1 placed, which includes Shamardal's winning 4 grade 1's, the Grade 1 Coronation Cup winner and third place, and the winner of the English Two Thousand Guineas, and the second place in the Florida Derby. Theres also an additional Grade 2 and 2 Grade 3 placed runners.
Hi Halo,
Coquinerie DID make the disturbingly inaccurate statement that Giant's Causeway has sired 5 GI Winners and I think that is what Mr. Rogers was refering to.
Perhaps Coquinerie got the eroneous idea from this post of yours though:
I understood your meaning here; but I can almost see how someone might have misinterpreted it given how you went straight from talking about "GI Horses" to talking about "GI Winners" (Still, you are at no fault).
If nothing else this shows how Coolmore Advertising has so thoughly warped people's perception of Giant's Causeway's stud performance; as anyone with an accurate comprehension of GA's stud record so far would have been highly sceptical of even a straight-up statement that he did something nearly unprecedented like sire 5 GIWs in his first crop.
How much less would a mind unmanipulated by Coolmore Ad Dollars misinterprete an accurate statement to make it say something it didn't!
To me at least, this strongly backs up what FOS was saying in his original post about this very thing (namely that The Perception of Giant's Causeway's stud record has been warped by a barrage of sophisticated propaganda)...
-llbean
Coquinerie DID make the disturbingly inaccurate statement that Giant's Causeway has sired 5 GI Winners and I think that is what Mr. Rogers was refering to.
Perhaps Coquinerie got the eroneous idea from this post of yours though:
At least Giants Causeway has shown the ability to produce grade one horses, and has I believe 5 in his first crop. That is what those who are paying those stud fees are looking for, the grade one winning colt who will have value as a stallion.
I understood your meaning here; but I can almost see how someone might have misinterpreted it given how you went straight from talking about "GI Horses" to talking about "GI Winners" (Still, you are at no fault).
If nothing else this shows how Coolmore Advertising has so thoughly warped people's perception of Giant's Causeway's stud performance; as anyone with an accurate comprehension of GA's stud record so far would have been highly sceptical of even a straight-up statement that he did something nearly unprecedented like sire 5 GIWs in his first crop.
How much less would a mind unmanipulated by Coolmore Ad Dollars misinterprete an accurate statement to make it say something it didn't!
To me at least, this strongly backs up what FOS was saying in his original post about this very thing (namely that The Perception of Giant's Causeway's stud record has been warped by a barrage of sophisticated propaganda)...
-llbean
hi halo
El Prado has EARNED his positon as a $100,000 stallion.
He started at $10,000+- and was offered what might best be described as pedestrian support for years...as were so many stallions that ultimately proved their worth as a result of genuine sire performance; rather than those stallions whose connections were/are attempting to define them as something they really are not...through the use of spin...hype etc that consciously ignores poor stats and percentages, such as in the case of Giant's Causeway.
As for El Prado, he was a Coolmore castoff...and stood at Airdrie to begin with. Arguably...had he been retained by Coolmore his start would have been different which might have included HUGE support and fanfare...and possibly hype and spin to help define their investment (in the most self-serving manner)...which in of and of itself is probably part of a good marketing strategy.
You wrote "At least Giants Causeway has shown the ability to produce grade one horses, and has I believe 5 in his first crop."
halo...I suggest that you are guilty of ignoring some Pertinent FACTS when making comparisons (at least in the case of GC v El Prado)...not the least of which is (for example) that GC's first crop of approx 137 named foals is more than 3 times the size of El Prado's first crop of foals (which numbered a mere 41). Furthermore, you might agree that the caliber of El Prado's relatively small book of mares (certainly by today's standards) was probably (at best) pedestrian in relation to those hundreds+- that visited Giant's Causeway right from the start.
As for stud fees at the outset...Giant's Causeway was the equivalent of US$115,000 when he stood his first season at Coolmore, Ireland. And that does not take into account the approx $20k+- that US breeders had to absorb to send and return their 40 mares from the US to Ireland to breed to him.
You can certainly support GC at his current outrageous northern hemisphere jacked-up stud fee of US$200,000...be assured, we'll send you flowers at the poor house.
At those numbers he is NOT a stallion for commercial breeders...now if you have a billion dollars or more and money and/or results (whether good or bad) are of no object...go for it.
I suggest that if your premise was correct (as you wrote) "That is what those who are paying those stud fees are looking for, the grade one winning colt who will have value as a stallion"...that Coolmore/Ashford would not have to spend hundreds of thousands (or more) to advertise...hype...and spin GC.
Storm Cat...A.P Indy...Elusive Quality...El Prado etc etc etc...don't need to regularly advertise. They have defined themselves and an occasional reminder is enough. Problem with GC is that he too is defining himself...and some disturbing FACTS are being exposed...that advertising...hype and spin cannot control.
In the case of GC...his never-ending deluge of advertisements...two page spreads...hype and spin are targeted at commercial breeders...buyers...etc in an effort to wash everyones' brains with some more self-serving promotion. GC needs it desperately as his stud fee is not justifiable. Obviously some of that 'stuff' is working on you...although I'd bet the farm you will NEVER breed to Giant's Causeway. Why...because he's of NO value at his ridiculous jacked-up $200,000+- stud fee...and you're smart enough to recognize that.
Re: Giant's Causeway...for you (or anyone for that matter) to attempt to make a case that all of the owners of the HUGE volume of mares this year (that visited GC) are pleased with how things are unfolding (about him) when taking into account GC's jacked-up ridiculous $200,000+- stud fee...is nothing short of outrageous.
Respectfully
El Prado has EARNED his positon as a $100,000 stallion.
He started at $10,000+- and was offered what might best be described as pedestrian support for years...as were so many stallions that ultimately proved their worth as a result of genuine sire performance; rather than those stallions whose connections were/are attempting to define them as something they really are not...through the use of spin...hype etc that consciously ignores poor stats and percentages, such as in the case of Giant's Causeway.
As for El Prado, he was a Coolmore castoff...and stood at Airdrie to begin with. Arguably...had he been retained by Coolmore his start would have been different which might have included HUGE support and fanfare...and possibly hype and spin to help define their investment (in the most self-serving manner)...which in of and of itself is probably part of a good marketing strategy.
You wrote "At least Giants Causeway has shown the ability to produce grade one horses, and has I believe 5 in his first crop."
halo...I suggest that you are guilty of ignoring some Pertinent FACTS when making comparisons (at least in the case of GC v El Prado)...not the least of which is (for example) that GC's first crop of approx 137 named foals is more than 3 times the size of El Prado's first crop of foals (which numbered a mere 41). Furthermore, you might agree that the caliber of El Prado's relatively small book of mares (certainly by today's standards) was probably (at best) pedestrian in relation to those hundreds+- that visited Giant's Causeway right from the start.
As for stud fees at the outset...Giant's Causeway was the equivalent of US$115,000 when he stood his first season at Coolmore, Ireland. And that does not take into account the approx $20k+- that US breeders had to absorb to send and return their 40 mares from the US to Ireland to breed to him.
You can certainly support GC at his current outrageous northern hemisphere jacked-up stud fee of US$200,000...be assured, we'll send you flowers at the poor house.
At those numbers he is NOT a stallion for commercial breeders...now if you have a billion dollars or more and money and/or results (whether good or bad) are of no object...go for it.
I suggest that if your premise was correct (as you wrote) "That is what those who are paying those stud fees are looking for, the grade one winning colt who will have value as a stallion"...that Coolmore/Ashford would not have to spend hundreds of thousands (or more) to advertise...hype...and spin GC.
Storm Cat...A.P Indy...Elusive Quality...El Prado etc etc etc...don't need to regularly advertise. They have defined themselves and an occasional reminder is enough. Problem with GC is that he too is defining himself...and some disturbing FACTS are being exposed...that advertising...hype and spin cannot control.
In the case of GC...his never-ending deluge of advertisements...two page spreads...hype and spin are targeted at commercial breeders...buyers...etc in an effort to wash everyones' brains with some more self-serving promotion. GC needs it desperately as his stud fee is not justifiable. Obviously some of that 'stuff' is working on you...although I'd bet the farm you will NEVER breed to Giant's Causeway. Why...because he's of NO value at his ridiculous jacked-up $200,000+- stud fee...and you're smart enough to recognize that.
Re: Giant's Causeway...for you (or anyone for that matter) to attempt to make a case that all of the owners of the HUGE volume of mares this year (that visited GC) are pleased with how things are unfolding (about him) when taking into account GC's jacked-up ridiculous $200,000+- stud fee...is nothing short of outrageous.
Respectfully
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Coquinerie
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FOS, I dont care if El Prado's first crop had only one foal in it, the fact is that he now has over 600 and the numbers of grade 1 horses are pathetic, at best. Saint Ballado started in Florida with minimal support, Storm Cat started out being all but given away, and they proved they were Grade 1 quality. It didnt take 600 mares to prove it.
And while you were pontificating away about Giants Causeways first crop vs. El Prados first crop, Giants Causeway added another Grade 1 performer with Mona Lisa's 3rd in the Irish Oaks.
And while you were pontificating away about Giants Causeways first crop vs. El Prados first crop, Giants Causeway added another Grade 1 performer with Mona Lisa's 3rd in the Irish Oaks.
I love how people like to trash AP Indy when it's convenient for them. Actually, Coquinerie, Indy has had several years when he has had multiple grade 1 winners. I'm not sure what year it was, but I believe Royal Indy, Tomisue's Delight, Runupthecolors all won grade 1's in the same year; he also gets a large number of graded stakes winners. If you want to chalk it up only to the fact that he gets great mares, so be it, but the proof is in the pudding. By the way, he had 13 SW in his first crop, including Pulpit and Tomisue's Delight - let GC or FP top that.