hi guys,
On many (if not most) occasions it seems that a lot of credit is tagged onto a sire and little (or at least less) credit is tagged onto a dam.
Example...I suggest that the 2-yo G2-stakes-winning filly (at Saratoga no less) Folklore (by Tiznow) is more the result of her dams and dams' sires [1st dam by Storm Cat...2nd dam a graded SW in excess of $400k by Fappiano...and 3rd dam a G1 winner of $300k by In Reality]...than her sire Tiznow.
I felt that the injection of brilliance and quality from her dam's side of the equation might very well be responsible (to a large degree) for Folklore's early success.
With that in mind...let's now take a leap.
I suggest that the success of Storm Cat might be more the result of his dams and dams' sires [1st dam the BRILLIANT Terlingua (by Secretariat)...2nd dam the BRILLIANT Crimson Saint (by Crimson Satan)...3rd dam Bolero Rose (by Bolero)]...than his sire Storm Bird (who arguably leaves little to talk about as a sire-of-sires...with the exception of Storm Cat of course).
I guess the question is...is Storm Cat's success more the result of his sire Storm Bird or his BRILLIANT dam Terlingua (and her connections)?
Storm Cat...is he more his father's son or his mother's son?
Respectfully
Storm Cat...is he more his father's son or his mother's son?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
All you have to do see look at him and you can see Terlingua, Crimson Saint and Secretariat all over him, Storm Bird gets lost in the translation. He passes on some serious body to his offspring courtesy of the females in his pedigree, but he also on those offset knees also courtesy of his dam. So I guess you have to take the good with the bad.
Nu
Re: Storm Cat...is he more his father's son or his mother's
FOS wrote:...Storm Bird (who arguably leaves little to talk about as a sire-of-sires...with the exception of Storm Cat of course).
I would have to argue that Summer Squall deserves mention.
hi Nessa,
You wrote "All you have to do see look at him and you can see Terlingua, Crimson Saint and Secretariat all over him, Storm Bird gets lost in the translation. He passes on some serious body to his offspring courtesy of the females in his pedigree, but he also on those offset knees also courtesy of his dam. So I guess you have to take the good with the bad."
Short...sweet and to the point.
Best to you.
Respectfully
You wrote "All you have to do see look at him and you can see Terlingua, Crimson Saint and Secretariat all over him, Storm Bird gets lost in the translation. He passes on some serious body to his offspring courtesy of the females in his pedigree, but he also on those offset knees also courtesy of his dam. So I guess you have to take the good with the bad."
Short...sweet and to the point.
Best to you.
Respectfully
FOS wrote:hi LSB
You wrote "I would have to argue that Summer Squall deserves mention."
I agree...mention...but not much more.
Respectfully
I'll have to "hrumph" on that one. For a horse with fertility issues, he got a Derby/Preakness winner in Charismatic (not given a chance and manages to sire Sun King inspite of it all), an Oaks winner in Summerly, and Personal Ensign winner in Summer Colony just for some highlights. Storm Cat's overrated (well overrated given what he gets vs. what he merits be it stud fees, yearling sales, top mares that don't fit him,etc) and overbred (he could have the world's largest libido, who knows I guess) and for the most part I understand his fillies to be pretty wired correct? Sure he's got stats to back up alot but geez give Summer Squall more respect than that. He certainly got enough going for him even if he didn't have what Storm Cat still hasn't managed with all the top mares they can cram into that book--a Kentucky Derby winner. The closest he got I believe was Cat Thief's 3rd to, oopsies, Charismatic, and then Tale of the Cat sired a 2nd placer in Lion Heart. Of course if ol' Sekiguchi (sp?) gets his way, Baffert might just train himself a $8 mil-worth of Derby winning colt by Storm Cat. Whatever Storm Cat deserves nobody should marginalize Summer Squall's achievements. Mention...how kind of you.
I expect one day people will do like they do now and tout the absence of Storm Cat in a pedigree for outcrossing strength like the absence of Mr. P or Northern Dancer. It'll mean he's big stuff but hardly does the breed a favor flooding it like that. I don't hate him at all, just get annoyed with some breeders. I always enjoyed Summer Squall and his offspring so I figured the old fella can't stick up for himself so I would. I know you meant no harm but I had to say something.Nessa wrote:All you have to do see look at him and you can see Terlingua, Crimson Saint and Secretariat all over him, Storm Bird gets lost in the translation. He passes on some serious body to his offspring courtesy of the females in his pedigree, but he also on those offset knees also courtesy of his dam. So I guess you have to take the good with the bad.
I'm all about female lines myself. Totally a 'power behind the throne' angle in pedigrees. Didn't realize or at least I didn't make the connection where his off knees came from before. Yeah you definitely can't miss the body his female family members pass on... interesting observation, thanks Nessa.
Hey at what point do you see something like offset knees passing on as a detriment to continue breeding and how much do you rationalize that other things are helpful and balance out? Just talking generally I mean. His bloodline could get so common that the knees become a bigger problem than they were before but do you think it likely that that'd be the case? Thanks.
I have long held the theory that far too little credit is given to the broodmares.
Most, if not all, of the major sires of the last century have come from tremendous damlines. Someday, once the final dregs of female discrimination have been stamped out, we may have a designation for "Dam of Dams"
Most, if not all, of the major sires of the last century have come from tremendous damlines. Someday, once the final dregs of female discrimination have been stamped out, we may have a designation for "Dam of Dams"
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
People seem to forget the fact that Storm Cat didn't get all of the best mares in the beginning of his career, much like Mr. Prospector. He got those mares by virtue of what his earlier crops did on the race track. You can't blame Storm Cat for the greed shown by breeders. I don't particularly like the fact that so many of his unproven sons have gone to stud, but every top stud has had this happen with his sons, look at all of the Northern Dancers, Mr. Prospectors and Seattle Slews and you know it's true. Unfortunately Storm Cat has been his own worse enemy, with the success he has had. Most of his sons have not been well managed(Johannesburg is a perfect example) all with the hope of getting some black type on them so that he can be sent to stud to make money for the owners. I think many of them would have been better served as older runners based on their female lines. Summer Squall has always been a favorite of mine. He has sired many of my favorites, but he hasn't been that great a sire. Even with the limited fertility(Lure has done better, with the same problem) he has been more like his sire than Storm Cat has been. Charismatic, Summer Colony, Summerly and the others are all proof of the good genetics that Summer Squall has and that he could get top class horses, and by the way Cat Thief dominated older horses in the Breeder's Cup on a pressured lead before he put the field way.
Nu
hi Nessa
You wrote "Unfortunately Storm Cat has been his own worse enemy, with the success he has had. Most of his sons have not been well managed (Johannesburg is a perfect example) all with the hope of getting some black type on them so that he can be sent to stud to make money for the owners."
Are you aware that Johannesburg (by Hennessy) is a grandson (not a son) of Storm Cat...but regardless...your comment perplexes me to some extent...respectfully...Johannesburg, not well managed? Do you mean at the races and/or in the breeding shed?
Arguably Johannesburg was a quite-special multiple-champion 2-yo racehorse, conquering all-comers...Eng (GR1)...Ire(GR1)...France(GR1)...USA(GR1)....turf and dirt. I suggest he was a sensational 2-yo, to say the least.
He did not go on and win (even once) in his three starts as a 3-yo...but certainly I expect you might agree he was a super-star 2-yo.
As far as his exploits as a young stallion, certainly he was bred to an ENORMOUS book of mares...but that seems to often be the way Coolmore/Ashford does it. Is that what you mean by "not been well managed"? Seems that many disagree with that style of stallion management.
Respectfully
You wrote "Unfortunately Storm Cat has been his own worse enemy, with the success he has had. Most of his sons have not been well managed (Johannesburg is a perfect example) all with the hope of getting some black type on them so that he can be sent to stud to make money for the owners."
Are you aware that Johannesburg (by Hennessy) is a grandson (not a son) of Storm Cat...but regardless...your comment perplexes me to some extent...respectfully...Johannesburg, not well managed? Do you mean at the races and/or in the breeding shed?
Arguably Johannesburg was a quite-special multiple-champion 2-yo racehorse, conquering all-comers...Eng (GR1)...Ire(GR1)...France(GR1)...USA(GR1)....turf and dirt. I suggest he was a sensational 2-yo, to say the least.
He did not go on and win (even once) in his three starts as a 3-yo...but certainly I expect you might agree he was a super-star 2-yo.
As far as his exploits as a young stallion, certainly he was bred to an ENORMOUS book of mares...but that seems to often be the way Coolmore/Ashford does it. Is that what you mean by "not been well managed"? Seems that many disagree with that style of stallion management.
Respectfully
[quote="FOS"]hi Nessa
You wrote "Unfortunately Storm Cat has been his own worse enemy, with the success he has had. Most of his sons have not been well managed (Johannesburg is a perfect example) all with the hope of getting some black type on them so that he can be sent to stud to make money for the owners."
Are you aware that Johannesburg (by Hennessy) is a grandson (not a son) of Storm Cat...but regardless...your comment perplexes me to some extent...respectfully...Johannesburg, not well managed? Do you mean at the races and/or in the breeding shed?
Arguably Johannesburg was a quite-special multiple-champion 2-yo racehorse, conquering all-comers...Eng (GR1)...Ire(GR1)...France(GR1)...USA(GR1)....turf and dirt. I suggest he was a sensational 2-yo, to say the least.
He did not go on and win (even once) in his three starts as a 3-yo...but certainly I expect you might agree he was a super-star 2-yo.
As far as his exploits as a young stallion, certainly he was bred to an ENORMOUS book of mares...but that seems to often be the way Coolmore/Ashford does it. Is that what you mean by "not been well managed"? Seems that many disagree with that style of stallion management.
Respectfully[/quote
You're right FOS, Johannesburg is a grandson not a son of Storm Cat. I'm definitely gonna have take better care when I post late in the night. I could have said Van Nistelrooy, Statue of Liberty,or Hold that Tiger too. Johannesburg is still an example of how the colts of this line are often pushed to get black type as soon as possible so they can be sent to stud and bred to as many mares as possible.
Johannesburg's training that year was severly interrupted time after time but he was still pushed to make the Kentcuky Derby, and in the end his racing career faultered. This is the kind of bad management that I was speaking of, though being bred to a couple of hundred mares in one year isn't good in the long run either. Some of the female lines Storm Cat has bred to suggest later maturing individuals, but rarely are any of them allowed to come into their own naturally and we never get to see what might be the best of them if they were allowed to do so.
Racing is being ruined by this behavior, but unfortunately there is just too much money to be made in the breeding shed and sales ring so we will probably never see the best from most of the really good young horses in the future.
You wrote "Unfortunately Storm Cat has been his own worse enemy, with the success he has had. Most of his sons have not been well managed (Johannesburg is a perfect example) all with the hope of getting some black type on them so that he can be sent to stud to make money for the owners."
Are you aware that Johannesburg (by Hennessy) is a grandson (not a son) of Storm Cat...but regardless...your comment perplexes me to some extent...respectfully...Johannesburg, not well managed? Do you mean at the races and/or in the breeding shed?
Arguably Johannesburg was a quite-special multiple-champion 2-yo racehorse, conquering all-comers...Eng (GR1)...Ire(GR1)...France(GR1)...USA(GR1)....turf and dirt. I suggest he was a sensational 2-yo, to say the least.
He did not go on and win (even once) in his three starts as a 3-yo...but certainly I expect you might agree he was a super-star 2-yo.
As far as his exploits as a young stallion, certainly he was bred to an ENORMOUS book of mares...but that seems to often be the way Coolmore/Ashford does it. Is that what you mean by "not been well managed"? Seems that many disagree with that style of stallion management.
Respectfully[/quote
You're right FOS, Johannesburg is a grandson not a son of Storm Cat. I'm definitely gonna have take better care when I post late in the night. I could have said Van Nistelrooy, Statue of Liberty,or Hold that Tiger too. Johannesburg is still an example of how the colts of this line are often pushed to get black type as soon as possible so they can be sent to stud and bred to as many mares as possible.
Johannesburg's training that year was severly interrupted time after time but he was still pushed to make the Kentcuky Derby, and in the end his racing career faultered. This is the kind of bad management that I was speaking of, though being bred to a couple of hundred mares in one year isn't good in the long run either. Some of the female lines Storm Cat has bred to suggest later maturing individuals, but rarely are any of them allowed to come into their own naturally and we never get to see what might be the best of them if they were allowed to do so.
Racing is being ruined by this behavior, but unfortunately there is just too much money to be made in the breeding shed and sales ring so we will probably never see the best from most of the really good young horses in the future.
Nu
hi Nessa
I hear ya.
But as you are aware "Black-type" (and it's perceived quality) can directly affect a stallion prospect's appeal and value (whether perceived or otherwise).
I can understand the quest (and possible impatience) that some may have in their efforts to attain it. It might be fair to say that there is a direct correlation between the quality (and quantity) of Black-type and a racehorse's connections' ability to sleep comfortably thru the night.
Racing and breeding thoroughbreds is arguably a very tough and often extremely competitive game. When the opportunity arises to accomplish something at the racetrack...it can be a difficult (and maybe not so wise) decision to postpone the opportunity. A misstep (either equine or business-wise) can be very costly. With that in mind...the best advice might often be...go-for-it when the gettin's-good and/or when the iron is hot...as long as the racehorse's well-being is not being ignored and/or selfishly compromised.
As a matter of interest...you might recall just a couple of years ago when Ruler's Court crushed the field and set a new stakes-record when winning the G2-Norfolk Stakes. Instead of running back in the BC Juvenile (just 3 weeks later as I recall) in his next start...the Darley-owned colt was stopped-on. Why? The explanation (at that time) was that Darley was pointing RC toward the KY Derby...and that since no BC Juvenile winner had ever gone on to win the Ky Derby...they were stopping on him to winter in Dubai...and prepare for the Ky Derby. To the best of my recollection...Ruler's Court was reported as hurt either in transit to (or in) Dubai. He was sidelined...missed the classics...and furthermore has NEVER won since the Norfolk. He probably would have been the eclipse champion 2-yo colt had he run in (and won) the BC Juvenile...hmmm.
There are no guarantees in this game...racing...breeding or otherwise. Correction...there is a guaranteee...a guarantee that bills will keep on coming.
In the case of Johannesburg, it's unfortunate he did not go on. But the flip side is that he was an undefeated world-beater and champion 2-yo in four countries. Had his 2-yo career been postponed (or reduced) in hopes of mapping out (or placing a priority on) a 3-yo campaign (focusing on a run at the classics)...who knows what might have happened. It might have worked...or he might have been sidelined (for any number of reasons) or he just might not have been the terror that he was as a two-year-old...or whatever.
It's very rare that we experience a Seattle Slew or Affirmed or Spectacular Bid or Secretariat. Even when a horse seems to be exceptionally well managed...it's rare that they are retired sound. Although horses like Skip Away (for example) and certainly a number of others...seem like they might have gone on and raced and won at the top...for years...had the breeding shed (and the lure of those dollars) not (ultimately) been so tempting.
Even fan-favorite Afleet Alex is on the shelf (and he's made but 12 lifetime starts)...who knows for sure what his future as a racehorse will be?
I recommend...cherish the performances...whether the careers are short-lived or long. Occasionally a truly GREAT racehorse comes along...and WOW...we have the privilege of witnessing something rare, and possibly for the ages.
Regardless...I applaud your interest and passion...it sounds like you genuinely care for and about these wonderful thoroughbreds.
Respectfully
I hear ya.
But as you are aware "Black-type" (and it's perceived quality) can directly affect a stallion prospect's appeal and value (whether perceived or otherwise).
I can understand the quest (and possible impatience) that some may have in their efforts to attain it. It might be fair to say that there is a direct correlation between the quality (and quantity) of Black-type and a racehorse's connections' ability to sleep comfortably thru the night.
Racing and breeding thoroughbreds is arguably a very tough and often extremely competitive game. When the opportunity arises to accomplish something at the racetrack...it can be a difficult (and maybe not so wise) decision to postpone the opportunity. A misstep (either equine or business-wise) can be very costly. With that in mind...the best advice might often be...go-for-it when the gettin's-good and/or when the iron is hot...as long as the racehorse's well-being is not being ignored and/or selfishly compromised.
As a matter of interest...you might recall just a couple of years ago when Ruler's Court crushed the field and set a new stakes-record when winning the G2-Norfolk Stakes. Instead of running back in the BC Juvenile (just 3 weeks later as I recall) in his next start...the Darley-owned colt was stopped-on. Why? The explanation (at that time) was that Darley was pointing RC toward the KY Derby...and that since no BC Juvenile winner had ever gone on to win the Ky Derby...they were stopping on him to winter in Dubai...and prepare for the Ky Derby. To the best of my recollection...Ruler's Court was reported as hurt either in transit to (or in) Dubai. He was sidelined...missed the classics...and furthermore has NEVER won since the Norfolk. He probably would have been the eclipse champion 2-yo colt had he run in (and won) the BC Juvenile...hmmm.
There are no guarantees in this game...racing...breeding or otherwise. Correction...there is a guaranteee...a guarantee that bills will keep on coming.
In the case of Johannesburg, it's unfortunate he did not go on. But the flip side is that he was an undefeated world-beater and champion 2-yo in four countries. Had his 2-yo career been postponed (or reduced) in hopes of mapping out (or placing a priority on) a 3-yo campaign (focusing on a run at the classics)...who knows what might have happened. It might have worked...or he might have been sidelined (for any number of reasons) or he just might not have been the terror that he was as a two-year-old...or whatever.
It's very rare that we experience a Seattle Slew or Affirmed or Spectacular Bid or Secretariat. Even when a horse seems to be exceptionally well managed...it's rare that they are retired sound. Although horses like Skip Away (for example) and certainly a number of others...seem like they might have gone on and raced and won at the top...for years...had the breeding shed (and the lure of those dollars) not (ultimately) been so tempting.
Even fan-favorite Afleet Alex is on the shelf (and he's made but 12 lifetime starts)...who knows for sure what his future as a racehorse will be?
I recommend...cherish the performances...whether the careers are short-lived or long. Occasionally a truly GREAT racehorse comes along...and WOW...we have the privilege of witnessing something rare, and possibly for the ages.
Regardless...I applaud your interest and passion...it sounds like you genuinely care for and about these wonderful thoroughbreds.
Respectfully
Terlingua
I was so happy to see Secretariat via Terlingua getting some credit here! I'm working on an article to this effect but it's not yet ready to share.
Does anyone know how Terlingua is doing?
I think of her as "my girl" -- a "mature" pix of her by Barbara Livingston hangs on one of my walls & I've collected (almost) every published article on her during her career and later....
Thanks!
Does anyone know how Terlingua is doing?
I think of her as "my girl" -- a "mature" pix of her by Barbara Livingston hangs on one of my walls & I've collected (almost) every published article on her during her career and later....
Thanks!