Cherokee run sons and Montbrook

Derby2004 · Postby **Derby2004** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:25 am

I was just doing a little looking and IMO, Montbrook is a better sire than Cherokee Run. Am I the only one? But we all know their sons are hitting the barns now, so just wanted to know the forums opinion of who will be the better sire.

Cherokee Run has: During, Kafwain, Sir Cherokee, Dream Run, and Yonaguska.

Montbrook has: Chapel Royal, Snuck In, Thunderello, Pure Precision, Outofthebox and Trust n Luck.

Which ones by each sire will make it?

austique · Postby **austique** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:52 am

I think Montbrook and Cherokee Run are fairly similar numbers of course you're going to pay more to get to Cherokee Run :wink:

Out of the group you listed, I'd probably go with Kafwain (surprise, surprise) and Chapel Royal ( who will probably have 1,000 foals in his first crop :wink:

) and as the sleeper During, solid horse from a consistent female family.

Derby2004 · Postby **Derby2004** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:32 pm

I agree with your choices Austique. The farms that are standing these horses are a lot different. Chapel Royal and Kafwain will get the most and best mares IMO. You could say that Montbrook is the "Cherokee Run" of Fla. I like Kafwain and During for Cherokee Run and Chapel Royal for Montbrook. My sleeper is Trust N Luck. What are the thoughts about Sir Cherokee?

austique · Postby **austique** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:05 pm

Sir Cherokee is a weird one for me. I remember when he won the Arkansas Derby (beating Saint Liam before he was Saint Liam) and he looked great that day and then he was just spotty. His first two dams are turf bred which I think may hurt him a little and then he's got to contend with Kafwain, During and Yonaguska at a similar price range and they're higher profile suggesting that he will probably did not get as good a book. His fourth dam was an exceptional producer and some sires have come off this line, so its not inconceivable that he could be a decent sire albeit probably better off in a regional market, but one never knows til the foals start running. He's a flashy nice looking horse and the female family produced the very nice Two Punch.

FOS · Postby **FOS** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:43 pm

hi austique

You wrote "...Chapel Royal (...will probably have 1,000 foals in his first crop)..."

Now Now...do I sense a touch of sarcasm here? Let's not get carried away...a mere 500 foals in his first crop is probably more like it :lol:

.

Respectfully

Derby2004 · Postby **Derby2004** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:31 am

The best bred of the Cherokee Runs in my opinion, is During. The nest bred Montbrook is between Trust N Luck and Chapel Royal. I have not seen any of these stallions in person. Who can vouch for looks on these boys?

henthorn · Postby **henthorn** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:06 am

I was very impressed with Chapel Royal, and I like his chances. He was also an expensive yearling purchase, which bodes well for his commercialism in the first few crops.

FOS · Postby **FOS** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:10 pm

hi henthorn

You wrote "I was very impressed with Chapel Royal, and I like his chances. He was also an expensive yearling purchase, which bodes well for his commercialism in the first few crops."

To the best of my recollection, he was sold (for seven figures) as a 2-yo in training by Ocala Stud. I don't recall him going thru the ring prior to that.

Best to you.

Respectfully

KAL · Postby **KAL** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:48 pm

It is hard to argue or ignore the success Montbrook has had. While I have yet to see Chapel Royal, I imagine he will have, at the least, some initial success.

My biggest problem with the Montbrooks has to do with confirmation flaws and the significant chance for soundness issues. Thunderello, while extremely fast and fairly attractive, is somewhat back in one knee and significantly back in the other. Being back in the knee seems to be a Montbrook trait.

It will be interesting to see how Trust n Luck does. He is a good enough specimen and Vinery usually supports their stallions well.

Cherokee Run has been solid, spectacular at times, disappointing at other times, however I like the chances for success by a couple of his sons.

I was far more critical of Yonaguska prior to seeing his foals. He does seem to be passing along some of his positives and his negatives seem to be negated by the mare. With Vinery support, I would expect at least decent success for him.

I like During for a number of reasons, however he isn't real exciting. I think he will have solid, well put together foals, however he won't get the support from Claiborne that Yonaguska will get from Vinery, so I cannot be as optimistic about his chances for success. He, and his mares, will have to do the work themselves.

Kafwain may be the most exciting of the entire bunch. He is crooked, but almost exactly in the same ways as Cherokee Run. He does have slightly longer pasterns than I would prefer, however he is a huge well made boy. Actually, he looks like his sire... scaled up (to about 1.5x). He doesn't have the strongest female family in the world, however I'm not sure that makes much difference (it didn't seem to with Danzig). Kafwain probably won't get much support from Darley, but there seems to be quite a bit of support for him by the "right" people otherwise. He had speed, he has a great body with lots of power, and he has a "buzz" around him by the right people.... sounds like a recipe for sales success and plenty of chances for on track success.

henthorn · Postby **henthorn** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:00 pm

FOS, you are probably right about the sale of Chapel Royal in the past. It may have been in a 2yo sale. I remember reading that he had sold very well at one point.

pembroke · Postby **pembroke** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:23 am

KAL,..... I was at Keeneland November last year and looked at a couple of Montbrook mares. The ones I looked at were weak in the knees...none of them horribly so, just not quite correct. They were also on the course side, especially if they were his color. (?)

Georgerz · Postby **Georgerz** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:54 am

I think you mean on the "coarse" side. Otherwise the sentence makes no sense.

aurora · Postby **aurora** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:32 am

A comparison of Kafwain and Yonaguska shows that Yonaguska is a G1 stakes winner and that both his 1st and 2nd dam are multiple stake producers. Kafwain is a G2 SW and his first 2 dams are stakes winners but neither produced anything else other than the subject horse.

From this point of view, I would say that Yonaguska would be the better sire.

I would appreciate hearing arguments either way on this.

Derby2004 · Postby **Derby2004** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:43 am

I think we all know that this is going to come down to the number of mares.Out of these horses. Chapel Royall will have the best chance. Thats a given. But can any be the next Successful Appeal? IMO, Trust N Luck has a good chance, as does Pure Precision. If you look at the OBS Oct sale pages, PP was bred to some decent mares. Chapel Royal was bred to better. I think someone could flip a coin and guess

austique · Postby **austique** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:55 am

Negatives for Yonaguska for me: He had marked distance limitations and did not excel as a sprinter as he got older. I'm not a big fan of him physically either. I just find him very "light" for lack of a better catch all word.

I think he'll get some very precocious juveniles. The question is will they get any distance. I definitely haven't crossed him off my list, but have more of a preference for Kafwain.