extinct/endangered sire lines

Discussion and analysis of thoroughbred stallions.

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Deartoall81
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extinct/endangered sire lines

Postby Deartoall81 » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:42 am

I've got this neat little book called "Sires of American Thoroughbreds"; which lists all Thoroughbred stallions who got foals in America from the earliest days, to 1969.
There were some stallions of very rare (ex: Ten Broeck, Planet, *Wagner) who bred on to the early 20th century; so I was looking up these horses in the database for use in my fantasy TB breeding program.
Most of the time, I struck out - they either didn't breed on, or their progeny hasn't been entered into the database yet. :x

So, fellow board members: my question to you is: do you know of when certain male lines became extinct, or do you know of current stallions from endangered lines? :?:
If the doctor told me I had only six weeks to live, I probably would type a little faster - Isaac Asimov

kimberley mine
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Postby kimberley mine » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:42 am

Endangered:

Prince Rose (hanging by a thread in NA, Brazil)
Rabelais (occasional in NA, Japan)
Fairway (rare outside of Brazil)
Hurry On (hanging by thread in Brazil)
Man'o'War (virtually extinct outside NA)
Orby (extinct outside South Africa)
Hyperion (rare outside Australia)
Dark Ronald (rare outside Germany)
Swynford (rare outside Germany)
Himyar (very rare in NA, Brazil; extinct elsewhere)
Tourbillon (very rare)
Teddy (through Damascus)

Extinct (or so close it is virtually so):

Mahmoud
Rock Sand
Chaucer
Teddy (all other strains)
Ambiorix

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Mahubah
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Postby Mahubah » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:38 pm

Just some notes here:

Hurry On actually has some fairly significant representation in Brazil through the sons of Henri le Balafre and Baynoun. By no means an overwhelming presence, however.

Man o' War's primary base has always been in North America. The branch descended through Relic is pretty well extinct as a source of top horses in Europe, so the future of the Man o' War line in Europe now lies with the sons and grandsons of Warning. There were a few Man o' War line stallions in the Antipodes in the 1970s, but I believe those lines have fairly well played out. A possibility exists that Slew Gin Fizz may succeed in establishing a branch of this line in South America as his G1-winning sons Cafetin and Guarachero have retired there; multiple G1 winner Latency is still in training but may get the best opportunities of the three to judge by his race record to date.

Single Dawn, who is tail-male to Dark Ronald through *Grey Dawn II, sired the 2000 El Derby (Chi-G1) winner El Aragones.

Executioner (a grandson of *Mahmoud through The Axe II) and his son Grimaldi were both important sires in Brazil; any surviving *Mahmoud-line stallions most likely trace through these horses.

The great Argentine sire Cipayo was tail-male to Swynford; don't know off the top of my head if he left any notable sons, but he probably does have sons still active. Pepenador, also a tail-male to Swynford, was also a leading sire in Argentina, but I don't think he left any sire sons worth speaking of; he was, so far as I know, the last descendant of the *St. Germans branch of Swynford to lead the general sire list in a major racing nation.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis

louis finochio
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Postby louis finochio » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:03 pm

When I started researching TB Nicking Patterns in 1973 all those sire lines that were posted here were alive and well.

In todays time frame they are just about all history.

So when I do my research today I will use the following example.

Pleasant Colony produced superior nicks when bred to the dam sires, Northern Dancer and his sons and grand-sons. Instead of using (Phalaris) as the sire line I use the example above.

The scary thing with one dominant sire line is what will happen to the breed when the (Phalaris) sire line will ever free fall into oblivion.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
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nferro9925
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Postby nferro9925 » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:39 pm

K One King is moving from Gainesway to Thomas Farm in La.

I think he is Princequillo's sole male-line left in the US.

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SymRanch
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Postby SymRanch » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:44 pm

The Princequillo-line might be rare, but it's definately not yet extinct in the US.

I know Thunder Rumble stands in NY, and suspect there may be some other Thunder Puddles sons around.

In PA, we stand the palomino stallions GPs Krugerrand and his son Argo's Quest (both tail to Princequillo)

--symmetry ranch, llc

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Heidilady
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Postby Heidilady » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:53 pm

nferro9925 wrote:K One King is moving from Gainesway to Thomas Farm in La.

I think he is Princequillo's sole male-line left in the US.


Actually the shock of hoping that was not true led me to do some rudimentary research...until recently we had Summing and Meadowlake..I think there's a very very very little known active stallion called Verbatim Run (by Verbatim obviously - standing for $1,000 in NY) out there but the big connection for Princequillo now seems to be Meadowlake sons like Greenwood Lake ($6000 in Margaux Farm - KY), Meadow Flight (RIP and sire of Free of Love), Meadow Monster ($4,000 in MD and apparently a good option for MD folks as MD's #1 Juvenile sire), Medford ($1,000 in WV), Luftikus (in WV for $2,500), Canoe (allegedly the only Meadowlake son in CA), Meadowtime, and Snowbound (stands in WA for $2,200)..I guess getting your mitts on Meadowlake male offspring is your best bet? Probably breeding to Greenwood Lake.

PS. I have no life. I'm that bored. Don't hurt me or have me put in a straitjacket, I beg you...I can change. I just need sugar.

UK Breeder (19)
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Postby UK Breeder (19) » Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:02 am

Hi

Hyperion is still quite active here in Europe, through descendants Fayruz, and his sire Song, who is an emerging broodmare sire.

It's quite worrying to see most sires coming from a single branch of one of the founding sires. I don't disagree that Northern Dancer, and Mr Prospector sire lines are of extreme importance, but I think its important to keep some other lines alive.

hpkingjr
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HYPERION TAIL MALE

Postby hpkingjr » Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:42 am

Forest Gazelle who stands in Ohio is tail male back to Hyperion. Seems like he sired about 6 live foals this year. To my knowledge he is still active. We have a racing QH out of him named Pony Soprano, nice horse that couldn't outrun Tony Soprano.

kimberley mine
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Postby kimberley mine » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:17 am

Mahubah, thank you for the information. With a little bit more research, these gentlemen popped up:

SESTERO (BRZ), by Executioner, by The Axe II
OUT OF MIND (BRZ), by Sestero (champion 2yo in BRZ), just getting started in Brazil
DANCER MAN (BRZ), by Sestero; active in Puerto Rico

TRUFFAUT (BRZ), by Executioner
CASPER (BRZ), by TRUFFAUT

valerie
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Postby valerie » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:29 pm

my stallion goes to Ambroix twice through his dam

Ill-bred
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Postby Ill-bred » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:46 pm

The Himyar line in NA is represented by Holy Bull (and maybe Giacomo some day).

I hope it stays alive.

Sam
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Postby Sam » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:11 pm

louis finochio wrote:The scary thing with one dominant sire line is what will happen to the breed when the (Phalaris) sire line will ever free fall into oblivion.

I'm sure the same comment was being said a few hundred years ago when Eclipse basically took over.

nferro9925
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Postby nferro9925 » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:43 pm

I am glad that the Princequillo line has a few representives.

We need another Holy Bull son to go to stud too!!!

K~2
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Postby K~2 » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:48 pm

Our stallion is also from the Tourbillon line. It seems that it is most prominant via Ahonoora and his son Indian Ridge.
Legal Jousting (Indian Ridge X In Anticipation - Sadler's Wells) standing at Kingsgate Stud