Hi sparta
Please excuse me...a brain-freeze moment.
You are absolutely correct...the Hancocks bred, owned and raced champion 2 year-old and G1 Travers winner Forty Niner. When Seth decided he wanted to raise cash to invest in some new stallion prospects for the farm...he decided to sell his family's young and arguably top-class sire Forty Niner to the Japanese...they offered $10 mil.
I remember him saying that he did not have to make a case to a syndicate to sell...because he and his family owned Forty Niner outright.
It was apparently the easiest way to raise the sum of money he felt was necessary to invest in other young stallion prospects for the farm. Problem was...he put lots of money into Proper Reality, Go For Gin and Horse Chesnut. What a shame. Not a very good trade in my opinion.
With regard to Mrs. Lunger...she was a lovely lady, and a highly respected and lifelong supporter of Claiborne and its stallions. Stakes-winner and sire End Sweep was bred and raced by Mrs. Dupont-Lunger's Christiana Stable, and was the result of one of her many breedings to Forty Niner.
Respectfully
Gotta love that Claiborne PR machine
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Hello again Michael
When someone does a miserable job...they may experience the consequence of criticism.
Seth H, as I said, may be a wonderful guy...but it is apparent that he is a poor stallion facility executive...or whatever title he is tagged with.
When it comes to inefficient and/or unsuccessful management...it is clear to me that Seth is worthy of highest honors.
I expect Claiborne regrets the Forty Niner deal. Propert Reality was a bum...Horse Chesnut is not worthy (it reminds me of their historic mistake with the stallion Pronto)...Private Terms is just a horse...Ordway, come on...Go For Gin is just a horse...Coronado's Quest disappointed after being given a huge opportunity...Come on Michael you cannot believe that Claiborne has improved its position, or even maintained it. The have been on a steep slide for years.
How do you explain the farm's tired old structures...and a breeding shed ready for the Smithsonian (or maybe the junk yard).
Was it the result of great management when Danzig was blinded in one eye as a result of leaving him in a paddock with freshly creosoted top-boards.
Seth is responsible for it all...he's the guy at the top. For better or worse it's all happened on his watch. He's simply not good at what he does...whatever that is
But he does know Ky basketball.
If you want to discuss Taylor Made and/or Three Chimneys I am more than happy to do so.
Say what you want about Taylor Made...at least they stepped in with WinStar and made a deal on arguably the premier young stallion prospect on the horizon...Speightstown.
And Three Chimneys...now they are the masters of spin. But I expect you'd agree, they do have a well maintained gorgeous facility.
But in the case of Claiborne it appears they are on a serious downhill slide. I hope things will improve there and I genuinely wish them the best...but I see nothing in sight that may turn it around...and (based on his history) I don't believe SH has it in him to make it happen.
Respectfully
When someone does a miserable job...they may experience the consequence of criticism.
Seth H, as I said, may be a wonderful guy...but it is apparent that he is a poor stallion facility executive...or whatever title he is tagged with.
When it comes to inefficient and/or unsuccessful management...it is clear to me that Seth is worthy of highest honors.
I expect Claiborne regrets the Forty Niner deal. Propert Reality was a bum...Horse Chesnut is not worthy (it reminds me of their historic mistake with the stallion Pronto)...Private Terms is just a horse...Ordway, come on...Go For Gin is just a horse...Coronado's Quest disappointed after being given a huge opportunity...Come on Michael you cannot believe that Claiborne has improved its position, or even maintained it. The have been on a steep slide for years.
How do you explain the farm's tired old structures...and a breeding shed ready for the Smithsonian (or maybe the junk yard).
Was it the result of great management when Danzig was blinded in one eye as a result of leaving him in a paddock with freshly creosoted top-boards.
Seth is responsible for it all...he's the guy at the top. For better or worse it's all happened on his watch. He's simply not good at what he does...whatever that is
But he does know Ky basketball.
If you want to discuss Taylor Made and/or Three Chimneys I am more than happy to do so.
Say what you want about Taylor Made...at least they stepped in with WinStar and made a deal on arguably the premier young stallion prospect on the horizon...Speightstown.
And Three Chimneys...now they are the masters of spin. But I expect you'd agree, they do have a well maintained gorgeous facility.
But in the case of Claiborne it appears they are on a serious downhill slide. I hope things will improve there and I genuinely wish them the best...but I see nothing in sight that may turn it around...and (based on his history) I don't believe SH has it in him to make it happen.
Respectfully
When I revisited Claiborne last year I was most impressed by the timelessness of it all. Including the breeding shed, just as you described it, in which dozens of champions had been conceived. Doubt if Taylor Made or even Three Chimneys can claim that. As far as the new high tech barns and outbuildings in Kentucky go--if you've seen one, you've seen them all. They no longer make any impact on me. Not to mention, I learned long ago not to judge a farm by its glitter, but by its gold. I know plenty of us out-of-staters who have been burned by farms who spend more on their P.R. than on their feed. In short, give me the stately Claiborne any day of the week over the schmaltzy pretenders.
Maybe you had a bad experience with Claiborne, but I don't know anyone who has. When you breed a mare there, you get a fair shot at the stallion, and if you sell a foal by one of their stallions, you don't have to compete with 100 others by the same horse. They've always tried to provide a variety of horses, and for every Ordway you can find a higher priced failure at Taylor Made (e.g. Exploit).
I really think you're way off base with this one.
Maybe you had a bad experience with Claiborne, but I don't know anyone who has. When you breed a mare there, you get a fair shot at the stallion, and if you sell a foal by one of their stallions, you don't have to compete with 100 others by the same horse. They've always tried to provide a variety of horses, and for every Ordway you can find a higher priced failure at Taylor Made (e.g. Exploit).
I really think you're way off base with this one.
Im not so sure that Claiborne totally regrets the Forty Niner deal. $10 million is a lot of money. Thats a lot of stud fees and yearlings sold. I dont recall any of the Forty Niner yearlings bringing all that much money. Im sure Claiborne would rather be on the receiving end of $10 million, rather than doing what Taylor Made did, in buying Our Emblem for $10 million....a horse Kentucky couldnt stand when he left. Now he's back, starting out at a $35K stud fee, dropping to $15K, and can be gotten to for far less. Shrewd move, that one. Anyone wanna guess how long he'll be at Taylor Made? Seems I remember Taylor Made not only standing the forgettable Exploit, but bringing Storm Creek up from FL, standing for $20K, then in a flurry then getting rid of him just as quickly. He's now in Calif. for $5k. So how many of the Taylor Made clientele have been burned with those horses?
Kentucky (Claiborne excepted) is big into "instant gratification". I guess thats just the way of the world nowadays. Anyone remember Wild Rush? Sold for 2 million to Japan, then had his best year with several graded stakes winners.
Kentucky (Claiborne excepted) is big into "instant gratification". I guess thats just the way of the world nowadays. Anyone remember Wild Rush? Sold for 2 million to Japan, then had his best year with several graded stakes winners.
Hello Michael
There is a difference between timelessness (as you described Claiborne)...and dilapidated, archaic, decay or disrepair.
I understand your attraction to Claiborne, it WAS a wonderful facilty for many decades...and probably as recently as 25 years ago it might have been considered state-of-the-art. It is not that anymore.
Changing the design or style of the farm is not necessary...that is part of the splendor that was and is Claiborne. But maintain it, make necessary improvements...clean the place up and make it safer...and bring in real stallion prospects. That does not encroach on timelessness, but rather it instills integrity and commitment.
The appearance of the farm is slovenly, which raises serious questions about the facility's management. Yes the brass on the stallion plates is shiny...but the farm's infrastructure seems to be decaying...and needs serious attention.
I remember my first visit to the farm...many years ago...I felt like I was on hallowed ground. The great horses...the great champions...the great stallions...it all seemed great. I would like to see that again...but I have my doubts with Seth H at the helm.
Michael, you wrote "Lighten up on Claiborne. Their goal is different than Taylor's and, to a lesser degree, than their cousin Robert Clay's"
Michael, what do you believe is Taylor Made's goal ... and Three Chimney's, and Claiborne's?
I look forward to your thoughts.
Best always.
Respectfully
There is a difference between timelessness (as you described Claiborne)...and dilapidated, archaic, decay or disrepair.
I understand your attraction to Claiborne, it WAS a wonderful facilty for many decades...and probably as recently as 25 years ago it might have been considered state-of-the-art. It is not that anymore.
Changing the design or style of the farm is not necessary...that is part of the splendor that was and is Claiborne. But maintain it, make necessary improvements...clean the place up and make it safer...and bring in real stallion prospects. That does not encroach on timelessness, but rather it instills integrity and commitment.
The appearance of the farm is slovenly, which raises serious questions about the facility's management. Yes the brass on the stallion plates is shiny...but the farm's infrastructure seems to be decaying...and needs serious attention.
I remember my first visit to the farm...many years ago...I felt like I was on hallowed ground. The great horses...the great champions...the great stallions...it all seemed great. I would like to see that again...but I have my doubts with Seth H at the helm.
Michael, you wrote "Lighten up on Claiborne. Their goal is different than Taylor's and, to a lesser degree, than their cousin Robert Clay's"
Michael, what do you believe is Taylor Made's goal ... and Three Chimney's, and Claiborne's?
I look forward to your thoughts.
Best always.
Respectfully
I just don't know why you're so tough on Claiborne. Dilapidated? Slovenly? Decaying? Those are gross distortions, FOS, and you know it.
And your analysis of Seth Hancock I think is equally one-sided. Up till now, he's essentially been a one man show--as opposed to the juggernauts of Taylor Made and Three Chimneys--and hasn't jumped on every bandwagon passing through town as they have. He's gotten rid of stallions not cutting it--Coronados Quest, Our Emblem, Forty Niner and many others--and replaced them with newer ones. As I said earlier, some have succeeded and others have not--which is true for any of the farms whose new age methods you seem to prefer.
It sounds to me as if you have some grudge against Claiborne, and Seth Hancock in particular. Care to discuss?
And your analysis of Seth Hancock I think is equally one-sided. Up till now, he's essentially been a one man show--as opposed to the juggernauts of Taylor Made and Three Chimneys--and hasn't jumped on every bandwagon passing through town as they have. He's gotten rid of stallions not cutting it--Coronados Quest, Our Emblem, Forty Niner and many others--and replaced them with newer ones. As I said earlier, some have succeeded and others have not--which is true for any of the farms whose new age methods you seem to prefer.
It sounds to me as if you have some grudge against Claiborne, and Seth Hancock in particular. Care to discuss?
Hi Michael
The place is a slovenly decaying facility (although the real estate is certainly beautiful)...and there is no stallion on the grounds to elevate the farm to the star status that it proudly maintained for so many years.
I stand by my honest critique.
And by the way...placing Forty Niner in a "not cutting it" category with Our Emblem and Coronado's Quest is absurd.
I'm still waiting to hear what you believe are the goals of Claiborne, Three Chimneys and Taylor Made.
Respectfully
The place is a slovenly decaying facility (although the real estate is certainly beautiful)...and there is no stallion on the grounds to elevate the farm to the star status that it proudly maintained for so many years.
I stand by my honest critique.
And by the way...placing Forty Niner in a "not cutting it" category with Our Emblem and Coronado's Quest is absurd.
I'm still waiting to hear what you believe are the goals of Claiborne, Three Chimneys and Taylor Made.
Respectfully
Must get involved here...
Okay I have visited Claiborne once - yes ONCE- this was in summer 02 I believe. I agree with FOS. Danzig looked AWFUL, not weight-wise but his paddock was dirt, he was ungroomed with untrimmed mane and tail looked more like a kids pony than a great stallion. I was amazed at all the facilities, they are timeless but also falling down. The weir is beautiful, as I drove by that on a daily basis for quite sometime. Its a beautiful piece of Real Estate, I must say the only thing there that makes you feel like there is and are going to be champions is the Cemetery and the brass plates on the doors. But the Nijinsky, Sir Ivor, etc. plates are now 5 down the door with nothing of note above them
I love Claiborne, I wish they didn't look as if they were going down the unwalkable path but I do think it's inevitable.
I just hope Monarchos, or one of them can help. I do think their new Advertising person is doing a pretty good job. And as long as that doesnt break the bank(I dont think it will somehow!) they probably will go on for another fare few years. BTW- who is planning on taking Seths place???
Okay I have visited Claiborne once - yes ONCE- this was in summer 02 I believe. I agree with FOS. Danzig looked AWFUL, not weight-wise but his paddock was dirt, he was ungroomed with untrimmed mane and tail looked more like a kids pony than a great stallion. I was amazed at all the facilities, they are timeless but also falling down. The weir is beautiful, as I drove by that on a daily basis for quite sometime. Its a beautiful piece of Real Estate, I must say the only thing there that makes you feel like there is and are going to be champions is the Cemetery and the brass plates on the doors. But the Nijinsky, Sir Ivor, etc. plates are now 5 down the door with nothing of note above them
I love Claiborne, I wish they didn't look as if they were going down the unwalkable path but I do think it's inevitable.
I just hope Monarchos, or one of them can help. I do think their new Advertising person is doing a pretty good job. And as long as that doesnt break the bank(I dont think it will somehow!) they probably will go on for another fare few years. BTW- who is planning on taking Seths place???