The effect of curlin on his family

[barbfool]

Apparantly not as much as they would hope





You'd think that a curlin half sister by Saint Liam would be a hot ticket right about now..WRONG.

HIP (#558), curlin's half sister, RNA'ed at $600k!!!

You mean to tell me that curln's half sister, but a hot first year sire, and not only that, she is one of about 50 foals that you will ever see by Saint Liam because he died, half sister to Curlin can't pull in $600k? that's kinda sad.


Curlin's half sister, Deputy, HIP #401, RNA'd, in foal to Fu Peg, for $220k

I think Curlin has had a huge effect on the value on this family. What would these two have sold for if Curlin had not done what he did? I think that Curlin has increased their value 10X from a year ago.

[bdw0617]

Not arguing that he was a unexpected windfall for the curlin family, but I said

Apparantly not as much as they would hope

which is apparant from all the RNA's. Also, I find it really hard to believe that he is worth 70 million dollars and his half sister is worth 600k, if that, and his other half sister in foal to fu peg is worth 220k i

[sunday_silence]

I think they were looking at these 2 ladies with the bottom line in mind.

The baby is by Saint Liam. Obviously a very good racehorse, but will never be an important broodmare sire because he died leaving just one crop. And we don't know if he'll have any topflight runners from that one crop. The filly is a mixed bag conformation-wise. She may improve some as she grows up. I don't think they would've gotten $60K, let alone $600K, for her if Curlin weren't her brother. If she can't run, she'll still have broodmare value, but not as much as if she were by a more proven or flashier unproven stallion (like Bernardini). $600K was MORE than fair for her and I would've taken it if I were them.

The other 1/2 sister is by a horse who was a decent stallion, but stood in TX and no one would be too excited about him or his offspring in Book 1 at KeeNov unless there was a connection like Curlin. Deputy was a claimer and not even a terribly good one. Again, $220K was beyond fair.

[bdw0617]

I think they were looking at these 2 ladies with the bottom line in mind.

The baby is by Saint Liam. Obviously a very good racehorse, but will never be an important broodmare sire because he died leaving just one crop. And we don't know if he'll have any topflight runners from that one crop. The filly is a mixed bag conformation-wise. She may improve some as she grows up. I don't think they would've gotten $60K, let alone $600K, for her if Curlin weren't her brother. If she can't run, she'll still have broodmare value, but not as much as if she were by a more proven or flashier unproven stallion (like Bernardini). $600K was MORE than fair for her and I would've taken it if I were them.

The other 1/2 sister is by a horse who was a decent stallion, but stood in TX and no one would be too excited about him or his offspring in Book 1 at KeeNov unless there was a connection like Curlin. Deputy was a claimer and not even a terribly good one. Again, $220K was beyond fair.

could not agree more with this post.

i am left scratching my head... maybe they had someone willing to do better?

[barbfool]

I see that another member of this family will sell in the Keeneland Jan. sale, hip #883 I believe. The mare is Angel in the Wind and is listed as in- foal to Toccet who stands for $12500. Any thoughts on what this mare will bring?

[bdw0617]

I know this filly. she is Sherrif Deputy's half sister by a very durable stallion crafty prospector.


Here is the thing.. you are buying her for her baby making abilities... if you go though that family and take out curlin, it is a horendous producer of race flesh.


If they broke 100k I'd take it and run.

[sunday_silence]

If an actual half sister to Curlin by HOY Saint Liam can't bring more than $650,000, it's hard to believe that a 1/2 sister to his dam is going to be any kind of home run. I know the 2nd dam is a G2 winner, but she didn't produce anything that could actually run, despite being bred to the likes of Deputy Minister, Storm Cat, Woodman, and even Crafty Prospector got some serious horses. I'd still like to know how Sherriff's Deputy got into Saint Liam's book. Curlin is a complete aberration in the last 2 generations of this family.

[bdw0617]

an aboration is an understatement.

let me put this in perspective on how bad this female family is:

out of all the "name" studs she was bred to, storm cat, silver hawk, deputy minister, woodman, not to count the other 4 studs she was bred to, her progeny have earned a wopping $68000 dollars. 12 kids. 68k. 12 kids. her avg foal produces a wopping 5600 dollars with An AEI of her stallions being well above probably 1.5. it just doesn't get any wose than that.


for crying out loud, let's ungeld barb's bad boy and put him at lane's end while we are at it. i mean his 3200 claiming win up at fresno will look good on his resume. while I am being funny, a year from now he will be the leading produer for this family.. he is a solid old knocking claimer. low level claimer but hell at least he 's doing something at the track.

Curlin is like going into the boonedocks and finding the trashist two people you could find, and somehow, the genetics matched up they gave birth to bill gates.

I remember aruging with people after his classic win who swore to me how his stud fee was going to be at "least" 100k and how he was "worth 50 million dollars now"... and I got slapped around and laughed at for saying he hasn't outran his pedigree and thoose big offers everyone was thinking was oging to come, aren't coming, and the owenrs are going tob e sadly mistaken when they see the money they thought would be there isn't there yet. Curlin is alot like tiznow, he's pretty damn unfasionable even with smart strike on top.

And yet, 2 months later... no talks about his stud ventures whatsoever..everytihing has quieted down and he is getting ready to be shipped to dubai. no word of anythinga bout stud fees o stud farms.

[sunday_silence]

I think I'm one of the few who also believed strongly that Curlin would race in 2008. That was before he won the BC Classic, but the reason I thought that was more to do with his bloodlines and ownership than his race record. Smart Strike got fashionable all of a sudden, but he isn't a proven sire of sires at all. Plus, Jess Jackson and Co. were always saying that they bought him so they could enjoy watching him race. Apparently there was a limit to Satish Sanan's enjoyment, but I digress.

It's the same thing as last year with Invasor and Bernardini. Bernardini was the one with something still left to prove on the racetrack IMO, but he was the one with fashionable bloodlines, so Darley retired him while Shadwell left the Argentinian-bred Invasor in training.

I couldn't believe Stonewall wanted to retire Lawyer Ron so desperately in 2006. He's by Langfuhr and didn't have a G1 win to his credit. I mean, I like Langfuhr, but he's a far cry from A.P. Indy as far as the desirability of one of his sons goes. They should be glad that the guy they were so mad at left Ron in training this year and they can claim 2 G1 victories to his credit. Hell, I'd have left him in training next year. He doesn't like Churchill, but he loves Oaklawn and Saratoga. But I see why they retired him.

So, while the highly desirable son of Danzig, Hard Spun, is standing in a paddock in Lexington with a lot left unsaid on the racetrack, Curlin will hopefully continue to outrace his pedigree next year and take on Premium Tap in Dubai. I really hope he has another full season and makes it to the Cushion Track Classic at Santa Anita.

[barbfool]

an aboration is an understatement.

let me put this in perspective on how bad this female family is:

out of all the "name" studs she was bred to, storm cat, silver hawk, deputy minister, woodman, not to count the other 4 studs she was bred to, her progeny have earned a wopping $68000 dollars. 12 kids. 68k. 12 kids. her avg foal produces a wopping 5600 dollars with An AEI of her stallions being well above probably 1.5. it just doesn't get any wose than that.


for crying out loud, let's ungeld barb's bad boy and put him at lane's end while we are at it. i mean his 3200 claiming win up at fresno will look good on his resume. while I am being funny, a year from now he will be the leading produer for this family.. he is a solid old knocking claimer. low level claimer but hell at least he 's doing something at the track.

Curlin is like going into the boonedocks and finding the trashist two people you could find, and somehow, the genetics matched up they gave birth to bill gates.

I remember aruging with people after his classic win who swore to me how his stud fee was going to be at "least" 100k and how he was "worth 50 million dollars now"... and I got slapped around and laughed at for saying he hasn't outran his pedigree and thoose big offers everyone was thinking was oging to come, aren't coming, and the owenrs are going tob e sadly mistaken when they see the money they thought would be there isn't there yet. Curlin is alot like tiznow, he's pretty damn unfasionable even with smart strike on top.

And yet, 2 months later... no talks about his stud ventures whatsoever..everytihing has quieted down and he is getting ready to be shipped to dubai. no word of anythinga bout stud fees o stud farms.

Your comment that,'Curlin is like going into the boonedocks and finding the trashist two people you could find, and somehow, the genetics matched up they gave birth to bill gates', is ridicuious!

Curlin is out of a Deputy Minister mare, who out of a multiple Graded stakes winning mare of $340K, who is out of a stakes winning mare who produced 3 stakes horses herself. One of those is Count On Kathy who produced two stakes winners of which one is T.V. Countess who is the dam of Countess Diana, a champion 2YO filly and $1.1M earner herself. Also from this family came Exogenous who was a Grade 1 winner of $945K.
In total, the last 3 generations of this female family is responsible for 2 champions and 14 stakes horses and counting.
By the way, Curlin's sire is the current leading sire and stands for $125K in 2008.

Not sure how you arrived at this being 'the trashist two people you could find'?
It's amazing what you can find out in the Boonedocks!

[kimberley mine]

It's called a follow generation, and they happen. Just because Barbarika failed as a broodmare does NOT mean that her daughters will not produce anything of note.

Take another rather famous failed broodmare...Our Mims. Champion 3yo filly, sire was a champion and chef-de-race, dam was a blue hen, from a MAJOR family. Her foals included five unraced, one unplaced, three who couldn't outrun their conditions, and one five-time winner whose lifetime earnings would make him running as a moderately cheap claimer. Her daughters produced a BC Sprint winner (Elmhurst), a four-time stakes winner (by a Halo son...go figure), and the dam of Gr-1 winner Continuously. Her son Slewvescent sired THREE Gr-1 winners...and yes, one might claim that he rode the coattails of his mares, but MUCH better bred horses with MUCH better opportunities have done far worse (think Atticus).

You also have neglected that Sherriff's Deputy herself has been a decent producer...three out of five winners, in Texas where the purses aren't great, and making their way through their conditions. A lot of mares with better pedigrees and worse mates do a lot worse. It will be more of a crap shoot, and will require some careful breeding (the more Damascus the better), but I think a picky buyer might find good stuff. Curlin himself looks like the product of a picky buyer and careful breeding. He would have been bred when Tenpins was tearing up the track in the midwest and Smart Strike was standing for $20,000 or so. Probably got a deal since she was well-bred and it would be the same cross as a stakes winner.

[barbfool]

Good to hear from you again kimberley, informative as always. Very interesting about Our Mims, she is a great example of a follow generation.

You mention 'the more Damascus the better' for this female family line, but what Damascus line sires are their? With Curlin's influence on this family, what stallions bring some commercial appeal to the table?

[kimberley mine]

Not many Damascus-line sires left...Skip Away, Skip Trial (if he's still active), Skip to the Stone, Afternoon Deelites, Say Florida Sandy, and the recently exported Gilded Time. But there are sires kicking around with reasonably close Damascus, such as Out of Place.

[bdw0617]

It's called a follow generation, and they happen. Just because Barbarika failed as a broodmare does NOT mean that her daughters will not produce anything of note.

Take another rather famous failed broodmare...Our Mims. Champion 3yo filly, sire was a champion and chef-de-race, dam was a blue hen, from a MAJOR family. Her foals included five unraced, one unplaced, three who couldn't outrun their conditions, and one five-time winner whose lifetime earnings would make him running as a moderately cheap claimer. Her daughters produced a BC Sprint winner (Elmhurst), a four-time stakes winner (by a Halo son...go figure), and the dam of Gr-1 winner Continuously. Her son Slewvescent sired THREE Gr-1 winners...and yes, one might claim that he rode the coattails of his mares, but MUCH better bred horses with MUCH better opportunities have done far worse (think Atticus).

You also have neglected that Sherriff's Deputy herself has been a decent producer...three out of five winners, in Texas where the purses aren't great, and making their way through their conditions. A lot of mares with better pedigrees and worse mates do a lot worse. It will be more of a crap shoot, and will require some careful breeding (the more Damascus the better), but I think a picky buyer might find good stuff. Curlin himself looks like the product of a picky buyer and careful breeding. He would have been bred when Tenpins was tearing up the track in the midwest and Smart Strike was standing for $20,000 or so. Probably got a deal since she was well-bred and it would be the same cross as a stakes winner.

Kimberly,

I apprciate your imput. However I still say that it was more of an aboration. although you are correct in the follow generation, for that to be true, what you are saying that while she did not have successful race horses, she passed on the gene to have successful race horses, if that makes sense. it happens alot, you are correct.

that is not the case in this point. Curlin's 2nd dam, out of all her daughters, which is I think 6, too busy to look it up, I know that only 1 of them has had anythhing that resembles a successful career, and that is sheriff's deputy. And that successful career henges on one horse, curlin.

3 of 5 winners, however the other two where in 10k claiming races in texas, Same Houston and Reetma.

I think it speaks volumes that Sheriff's deputy's half sisters have not produced anythihng whatsoever of note. not allowence horses (for the VAST majority I might miss one), not stakes horses. I also find it interesting that the best offspring probably ever in their dam line, and definatly in the last 3 generations, comes off the hottest sire that improves everything he touches.

While smart strike is smoking hot when it comes to race horses, he is as unproven as unproven gets as a sire of sires.

It's amazing what you can find out in the Boonedocks!

so true.

[Georgerz]

To understand your post, would you explain what an "aboration" is? Thanks.