CTHS Winter Mixed Sale

westover · Postby **westover** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:19 pm

This year's sale I am hopeful will bring a different spin. Ken & Sarah Ramsay have consigned a # of horses, to the Ontario Sale. I thought this was really terrific of them to try to support our local market as they do run quite a few horses at Woodbine.

If my memory serves me correctly the current owner of Financing Available bought her in foal to Philanthropist. Her previous owner I believe was connected to Philanthropist (MS correct me if I am wrong on this as old age has caused many a memory lapse in me :wink:

) But the current owner is no slouch, he is exceptionally smart about his breeding choices & mares, so I would hazard a guess there is a method to his madness, he is quite possibly a little top heavy in mares & maybe needs cash flow but you can bet he gave a lot of thought to selling her. He is also heavily connected to the U.S. so don't sell him too short.

I always liked the idea of breeding 1 year here & the next in the U.S. We have as a whole not had a lot of stallions in Canada that have thrown runner's competitive in the U.S. I love the industry, right now I feel we are somewhat penalized for going to the U.S. (not always, as War Front was very hot at our Sale in September) and I can't lie it worries me. Purchasers really seem to want Ontario Sired Off Spring, I do agree that the closed races are a different level of horse, they are on a whole a more Regional Horse & I say that cautiously. We do not have the # of closed races, I think Americans think we have. Woodbine has far more open company races, as it should as it has attracted some extremely talented race horses, & some really terrific U.S. outfits. My own feeling is that Open Competition like that can only force us to breed better horses & hopefully bring better mares in to Ontario.

We try hard TF we really do, Adena has certainly helped us gain access to some better Stallions who have Graded Earnings & have produced some graded runners. That said Gardiner Farms (Paradox) has had such a successful breeding operation (within Ontario) & Mike (Dr. Colterjohn) has been extremely shrewd about his choice's of stallions to bring to our "Regional Program". Bold Executive (RIP big guy), Peaks and Valleys to name a few. Paradox also started to buy a lot better quality mares a few year's ago when they became independent of Gardiner.

So thats my story ... I love seeing all the good horse flesh that has settled here from the U.S., but I am a huge advocate of our own program as well. Keep in mind our Sales are only "Canadian Breds" we aren't like the big U.S. sale companies that can sell everyones horses..

Jean · Postby **Jean** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:05 am

Try running at Woodbine and see how "easy" it is! Large fields, great trainers and good horses. Sure horses ship in to win stakes but don't they do that everywhere?

westover · Postby **westover** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:26 am

The closed races for our strictly Canadian Breds, are a very small selection of the races offered at Woodbine, & it is small compared to the regular schedualed racing being offered.

Without a doubt Woodbine is World Class Racing, with purses to match. We are very fortunate to have that in our own back yard. TF if you ever want to see one if the best days of racing (IMO) you should come to Woodbine for International Day in October. Its a phenomenal day of racing!!

Mood Swings · Postby **Mood Swings** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:52 am

It's apparent you have no regard for our program here. To each their own. Just remember where many of those "great" U.S. sires came from.... a little horse born right here in our lovely province. That little horse was one people like you would have laughed at. He is of course Northern Dancer.

As for Philanthropist I'm not going to continue defending him. He is a decent stallion in our regional program. Who are you or I to say what he could have produced had he been standing in the States? Maybe he would be on par with American stallions, and maybe not.

I really don't think the sales venue is going to upset the mare either. What she deserves is to go to a good home. Period.

Another thing seeing as you have imparted your wisdom on us... Seeing as it is so easy here, shall I presume you have a string of your own horses that are competing here and "cleaning up" regularly?

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:06 pm

Well said Westover.
I'm not against the program or track. It's open races are much tougher than they used to be. I find the track there is very hard on horses hind ends unlike the poly at Keeneland so I try to avoid it (fwiw I do have some winners circle pictures from WO, 1/2 of them with horses claimed for a fraction of what they won for there). Also, unless you have a Canadian bred that hasn't been claimed the 20% lost in purses doesn't make it worth shipping up there when Parx and Delaware are offering the same or more money for claimers and Monmouth and Belmont the same for allowance horses. Woodbine is the only track I know of that adds a bonus that isn't available to the whole field to the purse. The purse should be listed as $40,000 plus 20% to eligible Ontario breds, instead of $48,000.
MS, you hit the nail on the head by calling the Philanthropist a decent regional sire, he is. My original post was about how odd the breeding decision was going from a leading North American sire to a regional sire who at the time did nothing. Most people not from Ontario would probably agree with me. Just as they would find it odd if Zenyatta was bred to Belong To Me (who I love, but only stands for 5k) this year. The people beind the decisions would have their reasons. But for someone going out to spend good money on a mare who made over a million on the track its an automatic red flag.
I'm not even going to comment on you bringing up Northern Dancer. Aside from, I love small athletic horses and look for them at sales, since most people love and overpay for the big bulky type that looks great in the show ring when they don't make it to the starting gate. Still not sure what a Derby and Preakness winner has to do with a comment about 2 1 time G3 winning stallions.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:16 pm

Westover,
I wouldn't read too much into the Ramseys selling horses up there. They cull big time every year, much like Stronach does. With all the fillies they retire every year its a neccesity. They are just trying to get some more foals by their stallions dropped in Canada to boost their earnings. The offerings also would probably have a pretty tough time selling at Kee and they are probably hoping people up there will over look their peds and or repo history to get a mare in foal to a KY sire.

westover · Postby **westover** » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:18 pm

I'm sure your right TF, there are a # of Kittens Joy' I believe in their consignment. As we are a small pool I just thought it was nice they were utilizing our sale. They almost always buy at our yearling Sale

Barcaldine · Postby **Barcaldine** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:05 pm

I bought two in-foal mares from the CTHS sale and plan to foal them in KY. From what I've been told the foals will be eligible to the Ontario Sired program which is only marginally less lucrative than the Ontario-foaled program. Hope I was given correct information.

madelyn · Postby **madelyn** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:09 am

You might want to give the CTHS-Ont a call to clarify. I know there is an Ontario Sired Stakes program, but from the website it looks like the rank and file races are for Ontario BREDS.. foaling in KY in this case adds nothing to the mix - well if you foal in Indiana and bred back there your foals would be IN-breds. KY offers absolutely Nothing to encourage mare owners to bring pregnant mares here. a KY bred has to be by a KY sire and the mare has to be here the whole time. Period.

Terrapin Flyer · Postby **Terrapin Flyer** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:06 am

Barcaldine,

If you drop the foals in Ky they are still eligible for the Ontario Sired races. So your horse could run in the restricted (to only Ontario Sired horses) Maiden, N2L and N3L Allowances. There are also somewhere around 25 Stakes races for them too. If you don't plan on being stabled at Woodbine you won't be losing much as these races are the only ones Woodbine cards in their book with the actual purse. The other races they decieve people by adding 20% to the pot and removing it if a non Ontario bred wins. An Ontario bred pretty much loses its value after its 3 year old year since there are very few restricted Stakes races for Canadian/Ontario breds. You get screwed even more up there if your horse has been claimed or gets claimed. For some strange reason any claimed horse is disqualified from getting the 20% for being Ontario bred.

So basically you're not going to miss too much by foaling in Ky, Unless you are planning to run in the richest NX1 in North America (the Queens Plate). The Ontario Sire Stakes are for all ages and distances and you can't lose your eligibility. Good Luck with your new purchases

K~2 · Postby **K~2** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:44 am

I would definitely contact CTHS Ontario. The TIP booklet is available on their webpage. The definition of an Ontario sired foal is in the booklet, but the distribution of breeders' awards only mentions awards for Ontario-sired AND registered Ontario breds.

Barcaldine · Postby **Barcaldine** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:10 am

Thanks! It's good to know what options are available for these foals.

Why is the Canadian broodmare market so poor? Purses are good, lots of good stallions coming in, yet the mixed sale was a disaster. I bought a 7yo 1/2 sis to LANGFUHR (in foal to Mobil) for $800! And a 6yo full-sis to a G2 SW (in foal to Wando) for not much more. These mares would have sold for much more at Keeneland. Seems like there's not much Canadian money chasing broodmares--but why?

Jane · Postby **Jane** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:47 pm

My problem is that I can't produce a yearling for much less than $40k and usually can't even get that for them at the sales. When I keep a horse and decide to run it myself then the problem of getting enough stalls at Woodbine becomes an issue. If I can't sell the horse and I can't get it in to train at the track then whats the point?

native diver · Postby **native diver** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:54 am

Just an amazing sale!!!!!! Brand NEW Halters stolen through the night, broodmares infoal given away for free next day and online bidding not working correctly. A drastic change needs to happen!!!!

Gallop58 · Postby **Gallop58** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:30 pm

Looked like a normal to slightly better than normal sale to me.
CTHS-Mixed is usually a cull sale with the odd surprise.
Native Diver, A drastic change? Who needs drastic change? A drastic change won't make stakes producers appear off the white page... Buyers are happy I would assume. Sellers should be happy too. They've been able to sell their culls.

My opinion on "Why is the Canadian broodmare market so poor?"
There are not enough serious breeders for a true market to develop. There are not enough serious breeders because there are not enough serious buyers for yearlings that only shop in Ontario. It's a regional market, and that's just the way it is. People like to go to KY. Makes you feel like a big timer. I don't think people within the industry are as concerned about things as much as internet posters are. After all, the fewer owners/breeders the better chance of keeping all the slot money in house. The good ones go south because the good buyers also go south.
41 ONT weanlings in KeeneNov.
146 ONT Yearlings at KeeneSept
From a foal crop is 700-800. The industry average is about 20% of yearlings go through the ring. 20% of Ontario foals go to Keeneland alone. When KY skims the cream, what can you expect? That's just how life works.