What's with all the 4 year old unraced Empire Makers?

[summerhorse]

Like 3 in a row plus an AP INdy and a Storm Cat unraced 4 yos?? I wonder if they got hurt or sick or if they are so unsound they might break down walking out of their stalls?

[AscotStud]

if only 70% of the foals race then there is going to be 30%of them with great pedigrees (at the top end sire market) who need homes. Now that Dale Baird (thank God for these horses mentioned) is dead the majority of them are sold as teasers or stallions in other countries.

There are also other "agents" who buy them for 1k or 2k and try to sell them to small market breeders for $15-20k and tell them what a deal the're getting.

[mlwinter]

Now that Dale Baird (thank God for these horses mentioned) is dead the majority of them are sold as teasers or stallions in other countries.

You know, everyone is allowed an opinion, but that comment is so unnecessary! I knew Dale, personally, he was not the monster that some try to make him out to be.

Those horses are bred to race, and at least some people ( Dale Baird and others ) give them the opportunity to prove this. They give them a chance to do what they were born to do, run. So many horses are just thrown to the side if they can't run at two.

What would the thoroughbred world be like if all the triple crown races moved to four yr old races, there were no two yr old races, and three yr old races didn't start until May 1. The soundness of the industry would change, as would a lot of other things.

[AscotStud]

When horses are clearly being sold as Stallion Prospects (not Stallion or Racing Prospects) and a trainer buys them that bothers me. Then when those horses prove once again that they are not able to race (for whatever reason) guess what truck lined up to pick them up at Mountaineer. I think those horses would have liked being a teaser or stallion in a small market or country over that end.

[mlwinter]

Teaser and small market stallions? More overopulation in the market, more unsoundness bred, and more starving unwanted horses, huh.... Yeah, that sounds so much better... not!

Dale was at the end of the line, why not take the blame back to the breeders who are breeding 100+, 150+ even 200+ mares live cover. Why not go back to the original trainers of those horses who said they couldn't make it ( i.e. the 3, 4 and 5 yr olds who are unraced), did you ever think the only reason those horses couldn't 'make it' was the fact they were pushed too hard? too young mentally? or just not derby material? But lets not talk about all the horses the likes of Pletcher or Asmussen go through ever year, heck every month.

Just because a horse is listed as a stallion prospect didn't mean he couldn't race, did you ever think it was selfishness on the current owners part? "Well I can't get him to run, so lets just sell him as a stallion prospect so nobody else can make a fool of me, getting the horse to run and earn some money."

But if you feel better picking on a person who's life was taken tragically in an accident and left family and friends behind that loved him, God help your soul...

There are always two sides to every story....

[madelyn]

I wonder how many of these horses were actually tried? Or how many were languishing on farms due to lack of cash to get them into training? Too bad you can't question the horse.

This sale has had a LOT of racing prospects, I think more than in prior years. I wonder what Fasig Tipton February is going to look like?

[AscotStud]

"Well I can't get him to run, so lets just sell him as a stallion prospect so nobody else can make a fool of me, getting the horse to run and earn some money."

Or maybe they are protecting the horse knowing that there was an injury and the horse should not be back at the track...with a human being riding it at 35mph. I ask if a horse is still a racing prospect before I even pull them out. Anyone can patch together a horse for a start or two, then ship them off when they are totally shot. I guess I would rather respect the horse and previous owners and or breeders and when they enter a horse and say it should not be returned to the track listen to them.

BTW last I checked teasers don't actually breed mares, so no worry of over population and starving horses on that front.

[AscotStud]

But lets not talk about all the horses the likes of Pletcher or Asmussen go through ever year, heck every month.

I have never seen either of the two trainers you mentioned buying Stallion prospects and then ship them to the killers when they can't cut it on the track. You can change the topic to their training styles as being hard on horses if you want, that's a whole other subject that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying.

[AscotStud]

more unsoundness bred

Those horses are bred to race, and at least some people ( Dale Baird and others ) give them the opportunity to prove this. They give them a chance to do what they were born to do, run. So many horses are just thrown to the side if they can't run at two.

Oh I see...these horses are too unsound to be stallions in countries without access to NA pedigreees and stallions. But they are A O K to put back into training at the Mountain.

Which is it...the horse never got a chance so it should go back into training against its ex-owners wishers...or its too unsound to be a stallion in Slovakia.

Please enlighten me

[AscotStud]

I knew Dale, personally, he was not the monster that some try to make him out to be.

The horse (that I saw everyday when I was at the track last year) that he bought, won with, then sent to the killers 2 months later might think differently.

[summerhorse]

It wasn't that DB was the dead end it was how he disposed of them that was! And his estate and heirs are continuing the family tradition it seems.

I do agree that there are WAY too many big books (and way too big). It's ridiculous for any horse but esp. an unproven one to have more than 85 mares in a book (and that is pushing it but I know they have to make money). NO horse needs to be breeding over 100 a year. IMO

[st. louis kid]

Any horse that ran for Dale Baird was literally running for their lives. Dead or alive, that is the truth.

[Heidilady]

Like 3 in a row plus an AP INdy and a Storm Cat unraced 4 yos?? I wonder if they got hurt or sick or if they are so unsound they might break down walking out of their stalls?

Are we assuming they got injured or are they just too slow given their value (stud fee and/or original sales price) that they're afraid racing will only lower the already precarious value they've got? Just for the sake of knowing were the unraced ones we're seeing from EM, SC, and AP Indy more often colts or fillies?

[AscotStud]

Are we assuming they got injured or are they just too slow given their value (stud fee and/or original sales price) that they're afraid racing will only lower the already precarious value they've got? Just for the sake of knowing were the unraced ones we're seeing from EM, SC, and AP Indy more often colts or fillies?

At the end of each book for the November and January Keeneland Sales, there is usually 10-20 Stallion or Racing Prospects that go through the ring (the ones that sell at this time are always colts or the odd time geldings).
The ones that have had an injury that shouldn't go back to the track are listed as Stallion Prospects, while most of the 2yo's or others late developping ones that just need an easier track to compete at are listed as Racing or Stallion Prospects. The people selling these horses know they don't have any value left. They have been with top trainers and can't get it done, so they are unloading them.
If you go to the consignment and as about the horse they usually have every step the horse has made since it got to a training center on file, they will usually let you read them over, then they might also tell you what issues they mights have.

Just because a stallion stands for a lot more money doesn't mean that all of them race, they are not all superhorses. The 25-30% (1/2 of them colts) that go unraced are going to need a home somewhere.