Last day Keeneland

[Sock Monkey]

I am sitting back and reading all of this and I am amazed. The reason I breed for hunters and dressage, and yes color on top of that, is because of the lack of respect that the racing world has for a thoroughbred breeding program that is not specifically directed towards racing.

I agree that the racing world doesn't have much interest breeding programs aimed at pursuits other than racing. And, that is what I don't understand about trying to breed wildly colored racehorses. There just doesn't seem to be any market for them - and I doubt there ever will be. Color just isn't a factor when it comes to racing. So, what is the point of breeding them? Especially when you are not able/willing to put them on the track yourself? I don't think anyone would be complaining if the breeders were racing their colored homebreds, but they generally aren't - they're looking for someone else to do it to "prove" their breeding program. And, there's my big question: why breed something there is no market for if you aren't in a position to be the end user yourself?

It sounds like KEE was good marketing exposure for ReedHill. That photo in the H-L was very nice! What, however, are your plans with the RNAs you still have? Will you get them broke and galloping and try to sell them or lease them on the track?

[reedhill]

And, that is what I don't understand about trying to breed wildly colored racehorses. There just doesn't seem to be any market for them -

thats because there haven't been many prospects born to choose from, we want to start somewhere

and I doubt there ever will be.

yes there will be


Color just isn't a factor when it comes to racing.

no kidding, but it's beautiful to look at, and why not "breed up" some of the "foundation stock" we are offering and make better and better race horses that DO appeal to NEW buyers, spectators, gamblers, Geesh, is there any fun factor left anywhere? I'm not saying go buy a whole herd of them, but what about a young one to try, and breed it up better on the side, what it the crime in that? is having fun a crime?

what is the point of breeding them? Especially when you are not able/willing to put them on the track yourself? I don't think anyone would be complaining if the breeders were racing their colored homebreds, but they generally aren't - they're looking for someone else to do it to "prove" their breeding program. And, there's my big question: why breed something there is no market for if you aren't in a position to be the end user yourself?

Every breeder does not breed commercially to race either, why or when did that become mandatory? Money as I have said in the past, it is not my lack of willingness believe me, I would love to shove my win photos across every newspaper, and get paid more for my foals out of that winner, hell who wouldn't?? It's funny, you people all think that all of the racing industry is against adding color, that is not true.

It sounds like KEE was good marketing exposure for ReedHill.

it was

That photo in the H-L was very nice!

Well there were many better shots taken, but was not my choice to publish that one. We were very proud though indeed!

What, however, are your plans with the RNAs you still have? Will you get them broke and galloping and try to sell them or lease them on the track?[/quote]

The white sold this am, I have very good interest in Art In Motion, but they need to get some more money together, and Alla Aurora, we would bend over to see her run or sell to run, will be putting up an ad for her on equinenow.com

[Roguelet]

Forum Rule #3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal attacks, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

Everyone is entitled to hold and to share their opinions, but when discussion deteriorates into a sniping match it is no longer acceptable. So, I am asking that all of the participants in this thread please keep their tone civilized and their discussion respectful.

[Sylvie Hebert]

Well this discussion has degenerate...RH is right,in the show/riding horse business these colored no pedigree TB's sell and with better success than great pedigree no-color ones.I believe she just was hoping that people would see things in a different light;but racehorse business is a business not a hobby so people are not looking for fun,they are looking for $$$.Too bad,i think it would have been fun to see them run and hopefully with a little success,i for one wouldn't have mind training them,..who knows?...a good horse is a good horse...

[Sock Monkey]

It's funny, you people all think that all of the racing industry is against adding color, that is not true.

No, I don't think the industry is against adding color, I think the industry just doesn't care about color.

Every breeder does not breed commercially to race either, why or when did that become mandatory? Money as I have said in the past, it is not my lack of willingness believe me, I would love to shove my win photos across every newspaper, and get paid more for my foals out of that winner, hell who wouldn't??

It's not mandatory to race your own. Of course not. But, traditional commercial breeders are breeding to known quantities when it comes to race potential. It seems like color breeders are facing even more of an uphill battle to get their stock to the track when there is little in the pedigree to suggest the horse will be profitable for whomever races it.

And, that is what I don't understand about trying to breed wildly colored racehorses. There just doesn't seem to be any market for them -

thats because there haven't been many prospects born to choose from, we want to start somewhere

and I doubt there ever will be.

yes there will be

I ask this question because I'm truly curious, so please bear with me if I sound snarky - not my intent. How do you know there will be a market for colored racehorses?

[Des]

And my pick for the overall sale was Hip #3223 the Dehare colt...Loved his looks and hopes that he turns out to be a good one for his buyer.. He really caught my eyes.

[Desert Oasis Sporthorses]

I really believe there will be a market for colored racehorses. People like to be different. As time goes on and better stock is produced, I truly believe that the colored tbs will sell well to people who want to race. Sometimes I don't believe it is just the lines of the horse. Too many have bred outstanding to outstanding and wound up with a horse that doesn't want to run. I think it would be great to see a white/colored TB cross the finish line in first place. Especially if he/she did not have the most "perfect" or sought after lines. Wouldn't that be a great day?

[scrappyt]

It's not mandatory to race your own. Of course not. But, traditional commercial breeders are breeding to known quantities when it comes to race potential. It seems like color breeders are facing even more of an uphill battle to get their stock to the track when there is little in the pedigree to suggest the horse will be profitable for whomever races it.

I think this is it, exactly.
Obviously, right now, the commercial market is way down. People are not even wanting to spend money on pedigrees that are already proven. Yearlings out of stakes winning or stakes producing mares were getting overlooked as well. Yearlings that had less pedigree or those by an unfashionable stallion had to look twice as good.

When you have a horse with a weaker catalog page, it must be an absolute standout physically to sell well. That said, I did see some of the pony-sized yearlings that were out at Keeneland on the last day.

One other thing, to me, the vetting is important, right down to the end of the sale. If I was going to stick around and buy something from the last book, I would still (at the least) want to see a copy of the x-ray report. A horse needs to be sound to run whether it comes out of book 1 or book 7.

[radrider]

Honestly when I read what people have to say sometimes, I just laugh because from the readers point of view, some arguements are just funny. That's not to say that you don't all have your own opinions. I'm honestly not trying to offend anyone, if you take it the wrong way. I watched some great yearlings go through that ring all week over the internet, some went for bookoo bucks, while others went for peanuts or nothing at all. Thoroughout the whole horse industry, it used to be that if a horse was registered and had papers, it was worth something. Now thoroughout the country, blue-blooded horses, regardless of the breed, are starting to be worth nothing. I think its all a matter of over-production. I think breeding a handful of mares, or even a hobby breeder is okay, because they're doing what they love to keep the breed improving. But when you have a millionaire or billjionaire-not a real word =) breeding horses, hundreds to thousands of horses just to profit off of the poor animals is wrong. There's racehorses as blue-blooded or better that went through that ring, that are being given away because their owners can't afford them, they can't stand the pressure of racing, etc. I hope that those horses at least get a chance.
And for those arguing about what a horse is worth let me tell you a story.
My first horse was a registered Quarter horse mare nick-named Jugsy. I'm a small-town girl and
we live in town, so we kept her at my grandparent's farm. I'm the rider I am today because of that mare. I'm not the best or a world-wide competitor of any means, but I love riding. I got her when I was in the sixth grade. Almost 12 years later at the age of twenty-two, I had to put her down at the age of twenty-seven because she wouldn't have made it through the winter. I've learned more about horses and horse breeding and riding from her, than I ever could have anywhere else. She gave me two of the best riding horses I have and I think she's the reason I fell in love with horses in the first place. Let me tell you how much she's worth. In 1998, my dad got Jugsy for a thousand dollars and still today, even though she's not with me anymore, she is priceless.
So regardless of price, I hope that those selling horses that day got the good homes they wanted.

[reedhill]

Amen DOS!

Sock Monkey if most TB breeders don't care about color than no one is forcing them to buy them. Only the folks that aren't afraid of a challenge to breed better and better colored horses will enjoy running and winning with them. Pretty simple I think.

Yes, we face huge uphill battles, but we are not afraid of the challenge, we embrace it. We have all the poo-poo'ers and nay-sayers bashing us down every chance they get, but you know, WE don't care about them! Yeah, good for us!!

How do we know there will be a market for colored race horses?
Great question. It has been proven over and over in other breeds, that when a new color comes out that is approved among the different registries, there is positive feedback and there are people willing to get the best quality they can and make their own even better.

Case in point: See what I wrote in the C.C.:
Just as many other breeds do, we also have a young champagne AQHA colt that was very hard to find with the mind and body we wanted. Champagne is fairly new to many different registries, but you don't see those registries holding "grudge matches" aginst those trying to develope a color with higher standards than some, ONLY TB racing TB people do, VERY SAD! TB breeders are very quick to shun out people who think outside the box. QH, Paint, Arab.......you don't hear other breeders in those registries sniviling (sp?)and causing fights over a pretty new color, or trying to do their best to discourage anything new only TB breeders take on that role, and it makes them look like they do, starnge. Hope that's not too snarky.

[Fair Play]

I would never bash someone for breeding color. If money was no object and I could produce competitive palominos and buckskins, I would cheerfully do it. What I can't afford to do is buy a horse with generations of unraced ancestors and put $20,000 a year into it to see if it can run, or breed it to something proven to see if it will produce a racehorse-- unless I win the lottery. When as a racing prospect it is really only suspected to fetch a few thousand at auction, I couldn't take a chance on one because I am trying to make a living. Everything is a big enough gamble. Why stack the odds against yourself?

I think anyone who buys a stallion, or any kind of horse without proven results who hopes others will support them financially by buying the offspring and racing them, or breeding to the stallion, is going to be disappointed. It happens all the time in Canada. Someone who doesn't own a single TB mare, and never has, for some reason buys a "grandson" of Northern Dancer and advertises it at stud for a few thousand expecting people to be lined up the driveway.... If I wanted to breed to that kind of stallion, I'd go get my own for a grand at the Mixed Sale and breed to him for free. No one else is going to support him for me, or race his foals.

[Sysonby]

Could it be that TB buyers with their wealth of information resources and the extreme cost of training for their discipline are more discerning about what they buy? Could it be that $2500 a month training sharpens the skepticism when confronted with no pedigree wrapped up in a pretty color? Could it be that people who have to support these horses see through the double dilute whatever stuff and just don't see an upside potential in a blank page with lots of room for notes?

BTW what happened to the plain ones with no pedigree and no color? You sneer at racehorse breeders with the plain Jane horses but most of us breed to Graded SWs who have sired Graded SWs. There is a certain amount of proven athleticism that goes along with that.

I haven't heard anyone say you shouldn't breed your horses but if you are going to breed horses by a stallion who himself RNA'd for $4500 at auction after finishing a less than stellar racing career and you intend them for the track, you better be prepared to do the heavy lifting of proving him yourself. Stranger things have happened--Barpasser became an AQHA legend in the ring and st stud after a horrendous career as a running horse but those folks didn't expect to sit back while other people invested in their dream and made it happen.

And if you are not willing to do what it takes to make the horse (in whatever discipline you want to pursue), just what are you guys doing?

[Lisann]

I'm going home to make popcorn before I finish reading this!

[Desert Oasis Sporthorses]

Lisann: Popcorn would be good.

Sysonby: point taken, however, as I am sure you know, just because you breed to the best does not mean you will get a race horse. They are many out there that did not cut the mustard for one reason or another. Color does not mean they CAN race, but it also does not mean the cannot. I understand your point that if you want to race, put in the time. I say the same thing about sporthorse breeders. To make a name for yourself in ANY industry you have to get out there. Reedhill did just that. No matter the reason, she got out there.

I will say it again, it is the try that matters. At some point in their life, everyone tries. Whether we make it or not, the fact remains we try and some of us keep trying. One day all of our dreams will come true. The power of positive thinking. That is what makes it all worthwhile, no matter what industry.

Fair Play: I wish all could win the lottery so that we can all have our dreams. But, then again, the fun would be taken out of it because there would be nothing to work toward. So, I keep working and playing the lottery. One of these days...

[reedhill]

You all have good points. But we are prepared to take the long road. If it blows up in our face, we are big girls we can handle it. We won't be flooding the market with $1000 yearlings I can promise you, and we won't leave ours standing in stalls waiting for killers to sneak around and throw them in a trailer. The very strange thing I keep coming back to is that it is no bodies business if I breed Zebras, QH's, or colored TB's is it? It's too bad you all can't stand it that we are making some money selling them, HOW BIZARRE IS THAT?! You don't own me, live with me, pay my bills, and I don't you, so why in the hell are you all so upset?? Maybe the messgae board should have a post where people can get COUNSELING and try to vent their hatred towards us colored folk, LOL.
I think many on here need help.