Wild Evasion

[Green Hills]

We are going to be putting him on the market. I am curious as to what the folks here think he is worth.

[madelyn]

I guess the question is, on the market --- as a stallion prospect? A gelding for retraining? Horsecharts show him with four starts/no wins.

So for reference, you might look at the stallion prospects that were at Fasig-Tipton in KY this past Monday. Unbridled Lust, listed as unraced, went through as a SP for $6,500. He is by Unbridled's Song, you would have to somehow quantify how that compares to Elusive Quality. UL sold as a weanling for $180K vs a $40K stud fee, your horse sold for $100K as a weanling against a $10K stud fee. UL has more direct black type in his female family than Wild Evasion, so that has an impact also. The other Stallion Prospects were either - OUT - or RNA'd.

[Green Hills]

To tell the truth if we got $4000 to $5000 we'd probably take the money and run for the hills. Christophe and he just do not seem to be working out and we really are at a loss what to do with him. He's a good horse, he just can't seem to get it together to win...whether that's a lack of ability on his part or the training methods or philosophy is more than we really want to deal with, I think. Christophe advises selling...so that's what we examining at this point.

I'm going to ask some show folks I know if they'd be interested. If not, we'll probably send him to the sale.

[BenB]

would it be worth to get him right and ready for the track. I might able to help from a distance.

Ben

[Linda in TX]

Christophe and he just do not seem to be working out and we really are at a loss what to do with him. He's a good horse, he just can't seem to get it together to win...whether that's a lack of ability on his part or the training methods or philosophy

You might have the problem isolated without fully realizing it. You say he's "a good horse" -- obviously he's "not very good" otherwise he'd be there or thereabouts in his races - yet something prompted you to say "he's a good horse" as opposed to "slow" or "untalented" or something similar. "Christophe and he just do not seem to working out" is another clue. You didn't say, "The trainer thinks he's hopeless" but indicated there might be a "personality clash" between horse and trainer.

Could be your guy could blossom in another barn. You're already this deep in the horse, and yeah, I know about "throwing good money after bad," but based on your own statements, giving up on him now might be premature. Put him in another barn for awhile and see if he perks up. It's been known to happen, you know. Think John Henry.

[BJ]

To tell the truth if we got $4000 to $5000 we'd probably take the money and run for the hills. Christophe and he just do not seem to be working out and we really are at a loss what to do with him. He's a good horse, he just can't seem to get it together to win...whether that's a lack of ability on his part or the training methods or philosophy is more than we really want to deal with, I think. Christophe advises selling...so that's what we examining at this point.

I'm going to ask some show folks I know if they'd be interested. If not, we'll probably send him to the sale.

I just watched his first race. This is what "I" saw.

1. A bit green, but willing.
2. Looks like he would do better at a mile or so.
3. I don't like his work pattern. His works are 7-10 days apart. Why?
4. He may need a rest and someone willing to start over with him.

Personally, I wouldn't like my horse to be trained like that unless he was exceptionally fit and was a proven commodity in the training barn. Get him into a barn where he will get more one on one attention. It's NOT the horse IMO.

[KAL]

I find it quite amusing someone, who has never been around the horse, never watched it work, has no idea how the animal is around the barn, and is basically missing some important information as to make a qualified assessment, finds it appropriate to say, "...I wouldn't want my horse...".

Actually, if I had a horse who needed to work that way to keep his sanity or to keep him from coming unglued in the barn, that is exactly how I would want him worked. There are tons of reasons trainers do things... and we simply don't know enough to criticize Christophe... which, by the way, would be dangerous in any case... from all accounts from people who know him, he is a very, very good horseman.

On the other hand, perhaps he and this horse may not be a good fit. It happens. I would sit down with Christophe and get a solid opinion and recommendation... and don't allow him too much waffling... just get the facts and his opinions... Give it a few days, digest the info, and before completely giving up on the horse, allow Christophe to recommend another trainer... (and contact a few on your own)... find one you are comfortable with and make the change.

Discuss a time frame necessary for drawing opinions and conclusions with the new trainer. Take what they say and deduct a week or so. At that point, sit down and get their opinions and their version of "the facts". If they agree with the first set... move the horse along. Just don't give it a lot of time. Time is money and you need to either see a cure, or stop the bleeding.

I don't disagree at all with the thought that this horse may need a new barn. In fact, there are two people who immediately come to mind who I would discuss the horse with, if I were you. It is possible the horse could use a change of scenery. I simply have a problem with making negative comments toward a horse's training without knowing the situation.

There are just so many possibilities that could be derailing this horse... and of course, he could simply lack the talent, the will, the desire, or all three. It happens.

[BJ]

I find it quite amusing someone, who has never been around the horse, never watched it work, has no idea how the animal is around the barn, and is basically missing some important information as to make a qualified assessment, finds it appropriate to say, "...I wouldn't want my horse...".

Actually, if I had a horse who needed to work that way to keep his sanity or to keep him from coming unglued in the barn, that is exactly how I would want him worked. There are tons of reasons trainers do things... and we simply don't know enough to criticize Christophe... which, by the way, would be dangerous in any case... from all accounts from people who know him, he is a very, very good horseman.

On the other hand, perhaps he and this horse may not be a good fit. It happens. I would sit down with Christophe and get a solid opinion and recommendation... and don't allow him too much waffling... just get the facts and his opinions... Give it a few days, digest the info, and before completely giving up on the horse, allow Christophe to recommend another trainer... (and contact a few on your own)... find one you are comfortable with and make the change.

Discuss a time frame necessary for drawing opinions and conclusions with the new trainer. Take what they say and deduct a week or so. At that point, sit down and get their opinions and their version of "the facts". If they agree with the first set... move the horse along. Just don't give it a lot of time. Time is money and you need to either see a cure, or stop the bleeding.

I don't disagree at all with the thought that this horse may need a new barn. In fact, there are two people who immediately come to mind who I would discuss the horse with, if I were you. It is possible the horse could use a change of scenery. I simply have a problem with making negative comments toward a horse's training without knowing the situation.

There are just so many possibilities that could be derailing this horse... and of course, he could simply lack the talent, the will, the desire, or all three. It happens.

Can you say video KAL? You can watch all of this horse's races for 35 cents a race on Equineline.com. I can also see all of his works, where they were, and how many other horses ALSO worked that day. The horse runs like it has talent but it NOT fit. That's my opinon and I'm sticking with it.

Also, a horse will lose its "cookies" and its heart being raced when it isn't fit, and/or being raced where it isn't likely to run its best race. For instance, you see it all the time...trainers trying to make route speed translate to sprint speed. So the horse runs well for the first couple of furlongs, then fades badly. The trainer keeps thinking, "gosh the horse can't go beyond 2 furlongs".

BTW... I don't much care for you either KAL...in other words, the feeling is mutual.

[KAL]

Well... that certainly was mature!!! Slight overreaction, don't you think?

By the way, just for my edification, is everyone who does not share your exact thoughts out to get you, or dislike you? You do realize you're kinda' thin skinned when critized... for being critical of someone else. Interesting twist, don't you think? Paradoxial isn't it? Or, oxymoronic? I'm not sure which applies.

Actually, I never said I didn't like you... so the feeling isn't mutual... but, since you are reading so much into my post, you must be clairvoyant... so, perhaps you should have said.... "para-mutual".

I just pointed out that many, many things are missing which would be necessary before making such a statement. I actually would have expected you to agree to such a point.

OF COURSE you are entitled to your opinion... free world... heck, I didn't even disagree with your assessment... just your rather unfair statement about the training. Stick to your opinion, you may very well be right, and for Green Hills, I hope you are.

Re-reading my post, I did not dispute, make a negative reference about, disparage, or even question anything else you said. However, now that you have blown that bit of politeness... works 7 to 10 days apart are so commonplace (by a great many trainers) that I don't get where or why you have a problem with that. How many days do you suggest they be? Is there a preferred distance you would like each work, or do you prefer some type of other pattern?

Okay, BJ, ... so, you have seen the works. Let's get back to trying to help Green Hills... Did you see how the horse came back? Did you see the horse cool out? Was there something decidely different in the horse's attitude or gait from that found in the races? Did the horse work in company or alone? Was he eager in his works? How was his focus (or attention / attention span)? Was he more professional in his works than his races?

(Note: You made reference to him running green.. so I am assuming that you are referring to him showing a lack of experience. You also say he needed a rest, which implies he may be sour... could this possibly explain some "green" type behaviors?) I will actually support you on this thought... rarely do you hear running green and needing a rest in the same conversation. However, this is not impossible. I would suggest, we are looking at mental "rest" moreso than physical.

On the other hand, unless I missed something, which is very possible, you suggested the horse may need a rest without knowing when his last "rest" was and for how long.

I'll take your word that you believe it isn't the horse... but, it is the horse getting beat, correct. So, are we to take it that it isn't the horses ability... which makes it something going on mentally. If so, I'll also buy into that. Which makes the anwers to the above questions pretty relevant.

Okay... BJ doesn't like me... well, they say you cannot please everyone, I am glad to know the name of my "one".

[Green Hills]

I probably wasn't really clear.

Christophe says that he just doesn't seem to "want to." It was his suggestion that we attempt to sell him as he doesn't feel that he fits in with our program and perhaps he might with someone else's. Christophe is a VERY good trainer...if Voodoo Dancer is any indication and he is handling Spotlight for us as well and we are well pleased with the work he's done.

I also spoke to Todd (who trains some of our other horses) about Wild Evasion. His advice? Sell him. So...two trainers we trust are telling us that he should be sold, mainly because he doesn't fit in with what they each see as our "program" Of which sometimes, I'm not quite sure the meaning is...other than the obvious...winning races.

[BenB]

green hills, whatever your dicision good luck with it. Just pitty for the losses. Maybe someone else is gooiing to be very lucky with wild evasion,
in case you,re selling him

Ben

[BJ]

Kal says about BJ's post:

>>>KAL wrote:
I find it quite amusing someone, who has never been around the horse, never watched it work, has no idea how the animal is around the barn, and is basically missing some important information as to make a qualified assessment, finds it appropriate to say, "...I wouldn't want my horse...". <<<<

I'm the one being "immature"? Hmm, at least I took the time to look at the horse's form and works before venturing an opinion and supposedly "offering help". How DO YOU help someone without taking the time to look at what is being discussed? I call that kind of help "lip service" to fill time and space. So, KAL, instead of wasting your time "analyzing me", why not spend the time actually looking at the horse who is the subject of the post? Though that may not be as "amusing" for you.

In any event, Green Hills says the horse doesn't fit with the program of the owners. Hopefully someone willing to take the time will buy him and do well with him. Oftentimes, a barn blessed with an abundance of top performers, doesn't have what it takes to work with a horse that doesn't "do everything right".

The following is my opinion based upon what I can see on paper and what I have seen in SIMILAR patterns in horses:

The horse started out "trying", but green in his first start, a sprint. He was then run in a route race, where he still *tried*, but was not fit for the race, IMO. He was then put back in a sprint, and dropped in price, because the trainer (IMO) figured he was tired from the "distance", not the lack of proper conditioning. Next ,they tried to take the horse back in a sprint. Not his style, IMO. I *think*, the horse IS a router, but needs some time off now to clear his head AND start over BEFORE he sours. He does have route speed, IMO, BUT needs to be better conditioned before he is tested again. I feel his problems (which are correctable if he gets immediate R &R) are both physical and mental. If he is not rested, he will continue to go down the claiming ranks, while I believe, if he does get rest, and is started from scratch with better conditioning and attention to what the horse does best, he will move up the ranks, not down. That is my analysis based on what I can see on paper. What do you see KAL?


Wild Evasion, 2001 Dark Bay or Brown Colt,
by Elusive Quality (93)— Judys Wild Rose (92), by Wild Again (80)
Breeder: Runners Ridge Inc (KY)

(SPR=61; CPI= 0.6)
Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Earned (USA $)
2004 2 0 1 0 $4,550
2005 2 0 0 1 $1,400
Totals 4 0 1 1 $5,950

Date #Track Dist Type/Purse/Clm Splits Points Of Call Jockey W First Three Finishers Comments Earned (USA $)

020905 3GP ft 6f MCL14k/32k
2267 4597 1:1039 1 7 55½ 54½ 65¾ 510 BravoJ 122 L 3.20 72
TheChetahsTale4¼,ProBn3¼,SuthfilyBarynk 3 wide, faltered $140

011705 2GP ft 6½f MCL14k/32k
2298 4677 1:1825 9 6 2hd 2hd 22½ 39¼ CastellanoJ 122 L * 1.20 71
ChnngNumbrs5¾,MonOvrMiami3½,WildEvasion12¾ rail, gave way $1,260

120204 9AQU ft 8½f MCL19k/40k
4863 1:1360 1:4607 3 2 1hd 2hd 31½ 47 GryderAT 121 L * 1.70 72
TrueCall2¼,Lexnk,A.P.Slew4½ pace,tested turn,tired $950

102904 3AQU ft 6f MCL18k/40k
2240 4554 1:1160 6 3 32 33½ 24½ 21½ GryderAT 122 3.55 79
Gainango1½,WildEvasion¾,Kakapo1¼ chased 3 wide, gamely $3,600

Workouts: Wild Evasion

Date Track Distance Time Gate Track Cond. Rank

05-Jan-05 GP 4f 48.60 H Fast 6/22
(didn't work for 12 days before race on 1-17-2005, THEN didn't work at all between 1-17 & 2-09 race - WHY?)

27-Dec-04 GP 4f 49.00 B Fast 13/32
20-Dec-04 GP 4f 49.80 B Fast 13/31

RACE DECEMBER 2, 2004 (8 1/2 f race)
WHERE ARE THE CONDITIONING WORKS?

20-Nov-04 BEL 4f 50.52 B Fast 20/23
11-Nov-04 BEL 3f 39.95 B Fast 9/9

FIRST START 10-29-04 Are there MISSING WORKS?
24-Oct-04 BEL 6f 1:13.17 Bg Fast 1/4
WHERE ARE THE 5F WORKS?
15-Oct-04 MTH 4f 51.00 B Fast 18/26
08-Oct-04 MTH 4f 48.00 H Fast 1/26
01-Oct-04 MTH 4f 49.00 B Muddy 12/42
24-Sep-04 MTH 4f 51.00 B Fast 22/34

[LSB]

BJ, there's an obvious solution here. Why don't you buy the horse and train him better?

By the way my trainer, who is pretty well-respected himself, will tell you that it's the daily gallops that build condition. The works are for teaching the horse things and sharpening him up.

[BJ]

BJ, there's an obvious solution here. Why don't you buy the horse and train him better?

By the way my trainer, who is pretty well-respected himself, will tell you that it's the daily gallops that build condition. The works are for teaching the horse things and sharpening him up.

Egos...always get in the way. Absolutely, conditioning gallops are the foundation of a horse's fitness. But that is NOT all it needs.

LSB,

I have all the horses I can afford to take EXCELLENT care of at this moment. Were that NOT the case, I would DEFINITELY check the horse out for physical problems and if clean, most seriously consider buying him. He is bred beautifully. His broodmare sire is one of my favorites. A horse with that breeding, if sound, and with what he has shown so far, DESERVES a bit more "working with". I hope whoever gets him, appreciates him and is blessed with many returns by him. If a trainer (any trainer) doesn't want a horse in his/her barn or doesn't think much of the horse...the horse most certainly has a huge handicap to overcome.

Horses are all individuals. Too many trainers either forget that, never knew that to begin with, or don't have the kind of operation that takes time with those that might need it. If patience isn't part of the trainer's or owner's program, by all means, the horse and connections would be best parting ways.

I will also repeat my first post which seems (once again) to be the target of accusations that I am being negative or nasty. It always amazes me how people come up with those conclusions and attack the poster rather than engage in informed debate.

>>>BJ's first post on this subject:
I just watched his first race. This is what "I" saw.

1. A bit green, but willing.
2. Looks like he would do better at a mile or so.
3. I don't like his work pattern. His works are 7-10 days apart. Why?
4. He may need a rest and someone willing to start over with him.

Personally, I wouldn't like my horse to be trained like that unless he was exceptionally fit and was a proven commodity in the training barn. Get him into a barn where he will get more one on one attention. It's NOT the horse IMO.<<<

[Green Hills]

Thanks for all of your input, we have a lot to think about. We don't usually sell a lot of our horses, and we were hoping maybe to sell him privately as opposed sending him to a sale. We had some very high hopes for him when he was purchased.

We would like to give him some more time. But when the trainers all say that maybe he'd be better off in a different business, doing something he might be better suited for, we do have to stop and think. Maybe all ya'll are right and perhaps he would do better with a different trainer and that would solve the whole problem. I don't know, but it may be worth some discussion.

You didn't all agree, but all of you had very valid points which merit some real discussion on our part. So I thank you. And please continue to feel free to add to your ideas here or privately. We welcome all suggestions, it gives us that many more choices of action.

And if anyone is truly interested in the colt...let me know and we'll see what we can work out.