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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:46 am 
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madelyn wrote:
vallygirl927 wrote:
FYI Madelyn, Sunday Holiday's Ghostzapper filly sells in session 9.


Thanks!! I will make it a mission to get over and get photos of her!

I hope this year that there will be no big fireworks and that horses will sell for good, workmanlike prices, and that they will all find good homes.


Incidentally, the Ghostzapper filly was an OUT..

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:02 am 
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LB wrote:
Tappiano wrote:
I'm sorry but I'm a realist and it does not make sense to me that either a seller would be glad to be rid of a horse for just over what a meat buyer would pay or that someone would suddenly not want to bid because there had been little action. Either you like a horse or you do not.

The reality is that 1,000 is 1,000 more than I spent on a stud fee but I would still not let that foal go for that price. I'd just as soon find it a home and give it to someone then pay all the fees associated with sending it to the sales.


Nobody brings a horse to the sale thinking that it's going to sell for $1,000.


I second that - no one brings a horse to sale thinking it will sell for $1,000 & by the time you know that's what is happening . . . all those fees are already due - and many breeders can't afford NOT to sell. Especially this year.

Just a minor historical perspective -

Back in 2008, we had 2 yearling fillies at the Fasig Tipton Timonium (MD) sale when the stock market took its deepest plunge in history. Buyers weren't looking at yearlings - they were looking at their Blackberries, saying, "Down another 100 points." "Down another hundred"

Banks & brokerages were already in trouble; no one knew what would happen to the mortgage market. Until that moment, I hadn't realized where the buyers' money came from. Then I learned it was loans, or they cashed in some stocks, or they had to sell a horse to buy one - and NONE of that was happening, at the moment.

Back at the stalls, we saw people literally giving away nice, attractive yearlings because they had nowhere to go with them & another crop on the way. When sellers started giving away these nice youngsters, bidding got even more sluggish - because why pay for what you can get for free, back at the stall?

Only people who could commit to getting those yearlings to the track - or at least to a 2 y.o. in training sale - could afford to keep them.

But again - most of those sellers had re-bred their mares on high fees & had a crop due to hit the ground the next spring (2009). So in spring of 2008 when stud fees were high, mare-owners committed to breeding their mares & paying stud fees they were never realistically going to get back.

Those foals were born in 2009 - and are the yearlings you see today.

NEXT year's yearlings are the ones conceived in 2009, after the market crashed, when stallion owners began to play 'let's make a deal' & mare-owners began limiting what they bred, or trying to get out from under some of the expense by selling the sound mares as riding horses.

The highest end of the market aside, there never was a realistic chance for most breeders of making a profit at this year's sales.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:14 am 
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Surely as an owner you know your yearling is a train wreck before you get there?

My original comment referenced a stud fee that was 25K this year and was probably more two years ago and how six of those yearlings did not even go for half of that. If I were a commercial breeder how excited could I be seeing how many were sold at that price? Would you as a commercial breeder chalk it up to "needed to sell" or "must have been something wrong with them" and breed to them anyway?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Regarding the Ghostzapper/Sunday Holiday filly (#2736), she was a late scratch. I saw her Monday and would describe her as medium sized, attractive, square/balanced, right fore carpal valgus toed out, sickle hocked to some degree. I did not vet her.

I would have to assume she was scratched for a lack of interest, but there could be other reasons.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:01 pm 
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madelyn wrote:
madelyn wrote:
vallygirl927 wrote:
FYI Madelyn, Sunday Holiday's Ghostzapper filly sells in session 9.


Thanks!! I will make it a mission to get over and get photos of her!

I hope this year that there will be no big fireworks and that horses will sell for good, workmanlike prices, and that they will all find good homes.


Incidentally, the Ghostzapper filly was an OUT..


Ya, I saw that. Did you even get a glance of her?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:04 pm 
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da hossman wrote:
Regarding the Ghostzapper/Sunday Holiday filly (#2736), she was a late scratch. I saw her Monday and would describe her as medium sized, attractive, square/balanced, right fore carpal valgus toed out, sickle hocked to some degree. I did not vet her.

I would have to assume she was scratched for a lack of interest, but there could be other reasons.


Sickle Hocked...Really??


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Tappiano wrote:
Surely as an owner you know your yearling is a train wreck before you get there?
. . .


Of course. But your assumption that a horse that just gets a $1,000 bid must be a train-wreck isn't true. You just don't always get a reasonable price on a horse that deserves one. We've gotten a couple nice mares & weanlings that way - it takes at least 2 interested buyers to get a good price. If there's just one person interested in buying, he gets a bargain, if the horse goes into the ring without a reserve.

We've bought & sold bargains. Buying is better.

But that's auctions.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Sorry I was unclear in my response, that was not my intent. The thread branched out a bit so the replies are sort of combined. My commentary about knowing a yearling is a train wreck is separate than it bringing $1,000. Hey, I paid $500 for my mare and she's definitely worth more and comes from a solid, producing family and I could not be happier she's in foal on a free season, but yes that foal is not going to a sale to be sold.

If you take a yearling to a sale and want to sell it I would expect that both the consignor and seller have some idea what they want. I would fully expect that someone tells "you" (that's generic) that yearling is worth more or less than x.

I guess the bottom line is that if you need that 1,000 less commissions, fees and other expenses to get rid of the yearling then what is the point in being in the business? It's like someone buying a ferrari and then asking "How much is the insurance". If you can afford the car and not the insurance you should not buy it.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:43 pm 
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LB _ I think your explanations have been informative and accurate.
Tappiano wrote:
If you take a yearling to a sale and want to sell it I would expect that both the consignor and seller have some idea what they want. I would fully expect that someone tells "you" (that's generic) that yearling is worth more or less than x.

I guess the bottom line is that if you need that 1,000 less commissions, fees and other expenses to get rid of the yearling then what is the point in being in the business? It's like someone buying a ferrari and then asking "How much is the insurance". If you can afford the car and not the insurance you should not buy it.


I highly doubt that anyone who sells a TB yearling at a public auction for $1000 needed that $1000 the way you are implying. Do you sell yearlings at auction every year? I am assuming that you do not based on your posts. I know many breeders who breed quality stakes winning/placed, or winners, or even unraced mares who come from the best families who have let their horses go for $1000. That does not mean these horses are bottom of the barrel nor does it imply that their owners shouldn't be breeding horses. The fact is that sometimes $hit happens, I know a few people that had decent looking yearlings at both the CTHS and Keeneland sale that did not even get a bid, these were yearlings that had $10,000 and up stud fees by quality KY stallions out of young producing mares. The yearlings may not have been perfect (they rarely are) but they were certainly deserving of bids! If a yearling like I just mentioned goes through the ring and only one person is on to it then that person will buy the horse for $1000, barring there is no reserve. If the breeder or agent had a figure in mind for the yearling (say $25,000), then they would both be caught off guard when the yearling only gets one bid. If the owner is not in the viscinity and had not communicated that he/she wanted the agent to protect the horse then - voila! Yearling is sold!

A liitle redundant but a commercial breeder does in fact breed to sell... they do not plan on keeping everything to race. In worst case scenerios they hope that their yearling will go to good trainers (even good trainers luck into inexpensive horses sometimes) even though they may not bring much at the sale. As was already mentioned the bills continue to add up if you decide to buy your yearling back. At some point it is better to stop the bleeding so to speak. [/b]

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Tappiano, we have a really nice yearling, fairly correct, xrays are good, scope good, good looking and big, he didn't sell at the sale here in Ontario.. so in answer to you "train wreck comment" we were shocked he didn't sell & did I mention NO reserve.. (E Dubai - Royal Diamond (Regal Classic))

So there are a million x over owners like myself that put horses in a sale that ARE NOT TRAIN WRECKS that don't sell.

If you would like to have a look at this according to your theory " Train Wreck' " pedigree he is hip #173, www.cthsont.com

His sister we sold for $75,000 she ran once won and was retired as their was a question mark on an injury, and as they wanted her as broodmare they didn't risk it, she was bred this year to Milwaukee Brew, the Peaks & Valleys fell as a weanling, hit his head & has that forever curious look as his little head is crooked :( he is the sweetest and probably the best looking pony horse at Woodbine!!! lol

So there you go.. he is no Train Wreck by any means.. [/i]

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:44 pm 
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I agree - LB definitely knows what she is talking about. She breeds for the commercial market, lives in Lexington, attends each and every sale, and does her homework both on paper and in person.

Talking about the sales from an onlookers perspective is a whole different kettle of fish than actually attending the sales as a purchaser or consignor, absorbing, internalizing, and learning from the experience on a personal level, and having a knowledgeable point of reference.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:04 pm 
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I am in this business as I love it more than anything. Many Trainers at the Racetrack are there for that exact reason as well, lets face it how often does a really great horse come along for them? You win some and you lose some.

If the money is the only driving force behind a person' involvment in this industry, then they are in the wrong industry.

As far as it being like buying the car and then asking how much the insurance is, I disagree.

Racing is expensive, we don't race any of ours. The colt we brought home I am working on selling privately or I will make a deal with a Trainer. Just because you can't race them yourself doesn't mean you shouldn't breed them to sell.

Don't mean to beat a dead horse!! LOL

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 Post subject: sale
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:52 am 
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we certainly cant afford to race ours, however, the cost raising of 3 for 9 months to a year we have had them, we could have tryed! we are probably bringing our Political Force home, dont know what we will do with her, but can get more for her in a rated hunter show in an on the line class than what they were selling for yesterday! had a few people look, but I only saw 1 of them paying any money for horses , the rest looked like they were all buying bargains. I guess Im an A-hole :D , just because I got a bargain, doesnt mean Im selling her for that :) She looked good out walking yesterday, alot better than some, not as spectacular as others, so we shall see, she is hip # 4076 this am


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:46 am 
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westover wrote:
Tappiano, we have a really nice yearling, fairly correct, xrays are good, scope good, good looking and big, he didn't sell at the sale here in Ontario.. so in answer to you "train wreck comment" we were shocked he didn't sell & did I mention NO reserve.. (E Dubai - Royal Diamond (Regal Classic))

So there are a million x over owners like myself that put horses in a sale that ARE NOT TRAIN WRECKS that don't sell.

If you would like to have a look at this according to your theory " Train Wreck' " pedigree he is hip #173, www.cthsont.com

His sister we sold for $75,000 she ran once won and was retired as their was a question mark on an injury, and as they wanted her as broodmare they didn't risk it, she was bred this year to Milwaukee Brew, the Peaks & Valleys fell as a weanling, hit his head & has that forever curious look as his little head is crooked :( he is the sweetest and probably the best looking pony horse at Woodbine!!! lol

So there you go.. he is no Train Wreck by any means.. [/i]


I did not say that horses that sell for 1,000 are train wrecks, in fact I made a point of saying that I got my mare for literally nothing and she is the best "Free" mare I could have ever found (yearlings from her "family" at the recent sale went for 15-20K). I merely started out pages and pages ago referencing a stud fee of 25K and how there were a LOT of offspring who were selling for 1,000 and how THAT would reflect on HIM at stud and since you can't see whether I'm angry, sad, smiling or being mean you and everyone else picks apart one post. Maybe it would be easier if I quoted and requoted myself each and every time and used up more space on the server so that it would be easier to read what I am saying.

And yes I am fully aware that a sudden rainstorm, earth quake, swarm of flies and just about anything else can impact the price that a given horse goes for. The initial post was NOT about whether a horse that sells for 1,000 is a train wreck or not but merely one where if you paid a stud fee of 25K you lost a lot more than the farm who stands him did. I also alluded to the fact that if I were ON a horse that action or not I am still going to bid on that horse.

If you think I am attacking anyone on here for a business decision you are 100% wrong. If you want to see threads where there are attacks against someone let me know, I can show you some examples (and no they are not mine).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:12 am 
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Westover I am confused by your post. The yearling did not sell and did not have a reserve. I'm guessing that is your spin on no bid. Shocked? How could you not know going into the ring that your yearling would not sell? Consignors know before the horse goes to the ring how much action the horse has had, vetting, looks, etc. Most consignors will make a late scratch to save their clients a little bit of money. I noticed on one of your other posts that you are trying to get rid of the mare. I'm sorry but horses that don't even get a bid are train wrecks and a waste of everyone's time and money.Most people are knowledgeable enough to scratch the horse from the sale. Incidentally, having a brother as "one of the best looking pony horses at Woodbine" does not equal a profitable sale. I'm not trying to be rude but your post makes absolutely no sense.


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