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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:58 am 
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Chelsea Flower wrote:
Westover I am confused by your post. The yearling did not sell and did not have a reserve. I'm guessing that is your spin on no bid. Shocked? How could you not know going into the ring that your yearling would not sell? Consignors know before the horse goes to the ring how much action the horse has had, vetting, looks, etc. Most consignors will make a late scratch to save their clients a little bit of money. I noticed on one of your other posts that you are trying to get rid of the mare. I'm sorry but horses that don't even get a bid are train wrecks and a waste of everyone's time and money.Most people are knowledgeable enough to scratch the horse from the sale. Incidentally, having a brother as "one of the best looking pony horses at Woodbine" does not equal a profitable sale. I'm not trying to be rude but your post makes absolutely no sense.


You're confused by Westover; I'm confused by your post. During the whole second week of this current Keeneland sale, there have been many yearlings heading up to the sales with with low or no reserve. Perhaps some are trainwrecks, but many are not. In this market, breeders are needing to move stock along whether it's cost-effective for them or not.

And while consignors know how much action their horses have had, they are also knowledgeable enough to understand that a good looking yearling can pick up bidders and buyers in the back walking ring. These last days many buyers aren't even bothering to walk back to the barns.

I would venture to say that the number of people who know before their horse goes into the ring whether or not it will sell is miniscule--at every level, high and low.

FYI, scratching a horse from the sale once it's on the grounds at Keeneland saves the seller no money at all--which is why most of them go through the ring.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:28 am 
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I'm not having any trouble following Westover's posting either, they are disapointed that a yearling they spent probably 40k to breed, had clean x-rays and passed the conformation requirements to get into the SELECT sale then didn't get a bid.

How you thought Hill N Dale should know in advance that there would be no bid is beyond me, besides I'm guessing it actually cost less to leave the horse in the sale and pay commission on a "no bid" than to pay the last minute withdrawl costs.

I'm glad to see that you weren't trying to be rude Chelsea, I can only imagine how you would have come across if you had been trying.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:19 am 
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I have worked many sales both short listing and running barns. You always know if your horse is "live".If no one is coming back for second looks, chances are the sale isn't going to go well. How could they not know? Your horse isn't very busy at the sale and somehow you still think it will sell well? I don't know how the sale works in Canada but friends that are very successful consignors in the US have withdrawn at the last minute at Fasig to save a few bucks. It is hugely disappointing to take a horse to the sale and have that happen but I have many friends in the industry and that has never been a surprise. Yes maybe they run some through hoping to pick someone up in the ring, but when you are that point you just want to cut your losses. I understand that the economy is terrible right now and I certainly wouldn't want to be making my living by selling horses, it's a bloodbath. However, I have seen it time and again people that are not realistic about their horses become disappointed at the sale.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:21 am 
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LB wrote:
And while consignors know how much action their horses have had, they are also knowledgeable enough to understand that a good looking yearling can pick up bidders and buyers in the back walking ring. These last days many buyers aren't even bothering to walk back to the barns.


As an example, one of the horses that sold yesterday for a price in the solid top third of the prices yesterday was giving the owner fits because she had no scopes, no vetting, no one looking at her Xrays in the repository and she was only coming out as part of a consignor all show with no one coming back twice. There was a real fear she wouldn't sell at all and she actually sold pretty OK with a couple of people on her. But it wouldn't have shocked us if she RNA'd.

I echo the poster that said it's easy to be absolute from a distance but sales are pretty fluid and the rules are --there are no rules.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:26 am 
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Chelsea Flower wrote:
Westover I am confused by your post. The yearling did not sell and did not have a reserve. I'm guessing that is your spin on no bid. Shocked? How could you not know going into the ring that your yearling would not sell? Consignors know before the horse goes to the ring how much action the horse has had, vetting, looks, etc. Most consignors will make a late scratch to save their clients a little bit of money. I noticed on one of your other posts that you are trying to get rid of the mare. I'm sorry but horses that don't even get a bid are train wrecks and a waste of everyone's time and money. Incidentally, having a brother as "one of the best looking pony horses at Woodbine" does not equal a profitable sale. I'm not trying to be rude but your post makes absolutely no sense.


I wholeheartedly disagree with the statement in bold print. I think that statement alone is bold and in fact rude. There are literally thousands of horses that sell in public auctions every year and I know that many of the ones that sell are just as bad if not worse then some of the "no bid" yearlings. A yearling that does not get a bid is a yearling that didn't garner any attention, simple as that. Maybe their sire wasn't the flavour of the month, or they were big/small, yadayada the list goes on. I have personally seen the yearling that westover is speaking of and I assure you that horse is no train wreck based on his physicality an his pedigree.

"Most people are knowledgeable enough to scratch the horse from the sale. " I didn't realize so many people were psychic :shock:
I also know another gentleman whose yearling was a no bid at Keeneland. The owner and consigner thought enough of this horse to spend the extra money to sell him at Keeneland versus keeping him in Ontario. He was certainly no train wreck either. The consigner was just as shocked as everyone else when he didn't get a bid. What you are suggesting is that any horse that doesn't catch anyones eye is crap and people are what??... stupid for not having scratched them in the first place?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:06 am 
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Chelsea F. Not trying to get rid of the mare, the mare is a nice mare unfortunately I work for NON horse people..& in case you haven't noticed there is somewhat of a recession, the bosses thought maybe we should lease her for a year to buy time through a tough economy to see if the Ontario sale improves. No reserve, no bid you are correct. No reserve because a lot of people looked at the horse & we felt there was enough action on him that it wasn't warranted. I wasn't born a moron .. I always know ahead what part of the sale the horses belong & he was where he should have been, he is a nice enough individual. That said had I know how few people would turn up to buy from the select part of the sale. I'd have saved us about $1300 in Xrays & ran both colts through the Open sale as it was a more active part of the sale. I was dumbfounded when there wasn't one bid on the colt and should have probably started the bidding but I didn't. Take a look at the mares pedigree I think it would have been obvious we aren't trying to "get rid of the mare". She is a perfect BM for Canada, but I struggle daily with the bosses wanting to get rid of the horses, so if leasing her for a year buys some time so that they won't out right sell her thats would I would do. If the post made no sense it was probably because I was tired when I wrote it and had about 100 things on my mind.. I just think its asinine to think that we should have known the horse wouldn't sell. I don't have the #'s in front of me but there was enough action on the horse that I would have never "thunk it possible" we'd be bringing him home. We had a really good looking Trajectory who sold, Ontario Sired.. At this point its redundant as it looks like he is sold privately.

& yes we are thrilled that the 1/2 brother by Peaks and Valleys is a pony horse, just what we wanted.. from such a lovely mare.. a pony horse.. CF you can't be serious, get a grip on reality LOL :lol: Man, I wish I was as knowledgeable as you on the Thoroughbred sales industry, I'd be rich!! :roll: You are correct CF, you don't know how things work in Canada, just like the U.S. states, each province is a whole different deal when it comes to sales, Ontario included. Our mares were purchased through Fasig Tipton & Keeneland in Lexington. I spend a lot of time in Kentucky, its my favorite place... As far as Hill n Dale not knowing that there would be no bid, of course they wouldn't know, there was enough action on the colt to warrant us feeling he would sell. The Hill n D crew are our consignor's but, as well, friends, & had they thought that colt wouldn't have sold we/they would have changed the plan, as they have to listen too me LOL. Connections from H n'D attended the Ontario sale & also had horses in it from U.S. & Canada, & its safe to say we were all mortified at how the select sale went. I am very realistic when selling, if I was unrealistic I'd send them to Keeneland. I don't feel either of our mares progeny would sell particularly well in the U.S. Thats why we sell in Ontario. But CF, since you & your friends have so much knowledge & insight that the rest of us are obviously lacking, can I get phone #'s as I'd like to consign with you or your friends, so I know ahead exactly whats going to happen before it happens, or I can ask Hill n Dale to add a psychic to the consignment for next year. :lol:

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Last edited by westover on Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:12 am 
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Can we brighten things up just a bit? This is my train wreck of a mare that nobody wanted as a yearling (10K RNA) and we got from a board member last year for next to nothing. So you see you do get what you pay for.

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:21 am 
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p.s. Tappiano pretty mare, not sure I understand as you said you really like the mare and you got her for $500 but then you said "you do get what you pay for" I think you mean she is much much nicer than a $500 mare yes? :)

and jane, LB, MS I love you people. & you are correct about the $40,000 E Dubai stood for $15,000 that year, 2008 when we shipping each way to Lexington was $1000, vet bills to get her in foal, board etc.. totalled around $10,000, blacksmith, feed, shavings.. you know the deal..

The Peaks that we are so excited about being a pony is a whole other story.. and If you'd like to hear it CF I am more than happy to tell you all about it but I don't want to hurt anyones feelings that may be connected, that may be on here so you will have to pm me.. and I can't wait :) hee hee

Oh and CF you'd better call Curlin's connections as he was passed over by many concerned buyers due to an ankle that probably wasn't pretty, he was a $57,000 yearling purchase by Kenny McPeek..

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 Post subject: TRain Wrecks
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:35 am 
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FYI
"McPeek’s biggest auction coup came at the 2005 Keeneland September yearling sale, where he bought two-time Horse of the Year Curlin for $57,000. The first time McPeek saw Curlin, the strapping Smart Strike yearling had a large, swollen left ankle. “It was almost unsightly, but other than that he was a Greek god,” McPeek said. Curlin had an OCD lesion and had undergone surgery, but the site had not completely healed. McPeek had two veterinarians look at Curlin. “They both told me, ‘Give him 90 days and you’ll never know the OCD was there,’ ” McPeek recalled. “I can accept a flaw like that in the repository. I don’t accept many flaws on the throat. But a little flaw in the repository, that makes it easier for us to buy. I don’t believe in the perfect set of X-rays. If it looks like a runner, we’ll go.” Like many other runners McPeek has taken a chance on, Curlin was not perfectly conformed in his front legs. “The front legs are the last piece of the puzzle. There’s been a whole lot of good horses that weren’t made perfect up front,” McPeek said. “I’ve never seen many that had a bad hind leg. If they’ve got a good motor, they can overcome the front.”

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:53 am 
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Chelsea Flower wrote:
I have worked many sales both short listing and running barns. You always know if your horse is "live".If no one is coming back for second looks, chances are the sale isn't going to go well. How could they not know? Your horse isn't very busy at the sale and somehow you still think it will sell well? I don't know how the sale works in Canada but friends that are very successful consignors in the US have withdrawn at the last minute at Fasig to save a few bucks. It is hugely disappointing to take a horse to the sale and have that happen but I have many friends in the industry and that has never been a surprise. Yes maybe they run some through hoping to pick someone up in the ring, but when you are that point you just want to cut your losses. I understand that the economy is terrible right now and I certainly wouldn't want to be making my living by selling horses, it's a bloodbath. However, I have seen it time and again people that are not realistic about their horses become disappointed at the sale.


How "live" your horse is at the barn determines where you set your reserve. It does not determine whether or not the horse will ultimately sell--or even sometimes how well it will sell. FWIW, I've sold a horse with no scopes for three times its reserve, and RNA'd another that had double digit vettings.

If you think nobody gets surprised at the sales, you can't have been to very many of them. And your "friends in the industry" must be just about the only ones who always know what to expect because all of my friends--breeders, consignors, bloodstock agents--spend the sales dancing on their toes and trying to be ready for the next surprise...and just hoping it's a pleasant one.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Looking at all the results the most interesting thing to me about this sale is how high a percentage of the yearlings sold are going to foreign buyers. I would bet that at least 10% of them will be leaving the U.S. to race elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:08 pm 
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westover wrote:
p.s. Tappiano pretty mare, not sure I understand as you said you really like the mare and you got her for $500 but then you said "you do get what you pay for" I think you mean she is much much nicer than a $500 mare yes? :)

and jane, LB, MS I love you people. & you are correct about the $40,000 E Dubai stood for $15,000 that year, 2008 when we shipping each way to Lexington was $1000, vet bills to get her in foal, board etc.. totalled around $10,000, blacksmith, feed, shavings.. you know the deal..

The Peaks that we are so excited about being a pony is a whole other story.. and If you'd like to hear it CF I am more than happy to tell you all about it but I don't want to hurt anyones feelings that may be connected, that may be on here so you will have to pm me.. and I can't wait :) hee hee

Oh and CF you'd better call Curlin's connections as he was passed over by many concerned buyers due to an ankle that probably wasn't pretty, he was a $57,000 yearling purchase by Kenny McPeek..


The get what you pay for was meant to be taken tongue in cheek, this thread has become much too serious and people are taking offense at things when that isn't the intent. I don't have a business plan, GiGi is essentially a "hobby" and this foal could be the one and only. When my husband was alive we talked about this as an opportunity, but now I do have to figure out what I want to do for next year and beyond.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Got you re: Tongue in Cheek.

I think its taken so serious as its our livelihood and its serious business, serious money and its a good sounding board. I often enjoy reading the posts of others like LB, Mood Swings, etc.. that are knowledgeable & factual, I love the industry. I couldn't imagine doing anything else for a living but the last # of year's have been really tough for anyone breeding. As well anyone who sells and took a bath this year (such as we did) are reflective of why they are doing and how much longer we can continue to do it and lose money?

The large purses at Woodbine haven't had much effect on our sale here, yet anyway? and I wonder about the future of the Ontario Sale, changes that would help, always like hearing others opinions. Im a realistic, and we've had horses we knew wouldn't bring much but we gave them the best shot to be sold and go on to a good career. But I find it even harder when a horse such as the E Dubai colt doesn't sell and we know its a decent product.. tough times all around.

It will be interesting to watch the Nov sale at Keeneland & the January Sale. I love it in Lexington.. I'd live there if I could find a job there & get a green card.. its such a great place. :)

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 Post subject: sale
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:47 pm 
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All I know is, for 11,000, Im taking my girl back home :D


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:08 am 
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Westover. I have met some of the nicest people from Canada in the last 2 weeks. They included some awesome horse people who arent even in the TB business but came to Keeneland/Lexington with the WEG. We have so many horse games going on in Sept/Oct Everyone is here! Swedish Eq team doesn't look bad in britches and boots I may add.


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