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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:49 pm 
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I have never seen a "delete" post get so many responses. It looks to me like threegoodlegsst has made a quick escape from some pertinent questions. Honest folks don't "delete" and run. There is something more to this than meets the eye.

Madelyn is right. You want my money, you produce the papers at the time the transaction is concluded. Those of us who try to do right by our horses, don't need the headache of trying to chase down some moron who thinks they can control the future of a horse despite not having to pay the bills. I've had two people try to pull a fast one on me like that. Neither were successful. One time, I loaded the horse and when the guy told me he'd mail me the papers, I pulled the trailer into the middle of his farm drive at the entrance and parked. He couldn't get out and no one could get in. It took him about 15 minutes before the papers were in my hand and I was on the road.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:58 pm
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Location: Lexington, KY
when people have a hard time dealing with the fact they were wrong (in public) they seem to leave quick. I hope their horses get placed and they rest assured they have the papers and the horses will never be raced again :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:54 am 
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There is no reason why a JC registered TB should not change ownership without papers. I have a number of mares and two geldings that previous owners asked me to sign an agreement that the mares would never race again and I was glad to do so. These agreements are enforceable and in two of the (geldings) agreements, both include a paragraph that should I breach the contract, I will be liable for "all" legal expenses incurred by the previous owner during the enforcement.

Actually, by refusing to exchange the JC papers at sale, a horse can sometimes be placed in jeopardy, particularly on the distaff side. Say you purchase a sound OTTB mare for riding, show, or eventing purposes and the previous owner withholds the papers. Then some years later the mare becomes permanently lame but has a very good pedigree for breeding, you will find that you are very limited in the options should you attempt to find a none riding situation for the mare. (Simply you have a very expensive pasture ornament or you put the horse down.) Certainly, the value of the mare (with no JC papers) is depreciated markedly and you have no options including the possibility that your mare could be a TB broodmare with foals eligible for JC registration. TBs have futures beyond their owners, but without their JC papers the expectations of you or future owners can be markedly reduced if not non-existent.

Withholding JC papers does not result in better care for OTTB nor does it protect them. Having volunteered for many years at two regional horse rescues, I can tell you from experience that abuse and neglect of TBs and other breeds by horsemen is almost solely a matter of poor education and lack of finances. JC papers are part of the full package of TB ownership even with geldings and it is an important document that substantiates value and from a historical perspectative the breeding quality and lineage of a TB and why we take pride in owning them. I've always found that new owners want to know everything possible about their horse, not just that it has four legs and can be ridden.

I am sick and tired of people, up on their soap boxes, taunting that if owners withhold the transfer of JC papers that the TB will be safe. That's cr*p. Anyone telling you that is feeding you bullsh*t If a owner wants to know what situation he/she is sending their registered TB, they should do a background check on the buyer and get them to sign an agreement that is enforceable. Sometimes a call to a local extension agent will answer your questions. Ask for references in the industry, but if you decide to send your TB to a new owner, transfer the JC papers with it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Shammy Davis wrote:
There is no reason why a JC registered TB should not change ownership without papers......


Do you mean with papers or without papers..

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Madelyn posted:
Quote:
Quote:
Shammy Davis wrote:
There is no reason why a JC registered TB should not change ownership without papers......
Do you mean with papers or without papers..


I mean that every ownership transfer involving a registered TB should include (along with a bill of sale and any other legal documents) the JC papers. No exceptions.


Last edited by Shammy Davis on Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:06 am 
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I agree.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:08 am 
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I thought you would. You are an exceptional horsewoman and you have a firm grasp of how the industry works.

Horse people who come up with these selfish unrealistic ideas to save the TB, such as withholding JC papers from new owners so the horse can't be raced, have little understanding of exactly what the registration papers do. JC papers are not only an owner's ticket to race the horse, but it is also a historical, physiological, and genealogical record of that particular horse. We forget that markings and pictures are part of the registration process. Many horses of all breeds, without registration papers, get lost in the system as they are sold and re-sold. Many are found in stockyard auctions and without the papers many go unrecognized or unidentified. Registration papers provide a means of identifying a horse, not just allowing them to compete or show.

The TB horse and JC papers are a complete package. Withholding JC papers leaves the TB exposed to all sorts of problems and abuses.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:40 am 
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Iron clad contract? The judge thought so but guess who ran anyway and was vanned off after his third start in three weeks?


A Kentucky Circuit Court Judge granted Starlight Stables a permanent injunction on July 10 prohibiting the purchaser of its former graded stakes contender Sam P., from training or racing the horse.

Sam P. was permanently retired from racing by Starlight and Donald Lucarelli in November 2008, after the horse suffered a serious tendon injury which veterinarians advised posed a high likelihood of further injury to the horse had he continued to race. Consistent with its philosophy of insuring that its retired horses find suitable homes, Starlight offered Sam P. for sale solely as a breeding prospect through Taylor Made Sales Agency.

Triton Farms, an entity controlled by George Hofmeister, purchased the horse early in 2009. The sales contract provided that the parties agreed Sam P. was being sold "solely for breeding purposes." In April of this year, Starlight learned that Sam P. was being trained at Churchill Downs and immediately demanded that the horse be removed from training. When Triton refused, Starlight filed suit in Bourbon Circuit Court in Paris, Ky., seeking to enforce the sales agreement.

In his written opinion, Bourbon Circuit Judge Paul Isaacs stated that the contract language restricting the horse to use for breeding purposes was clear and unambiguous and that Triton had no right to ignore those provisions. The court permanently prohibited Triton from training or racing the horse.

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