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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Thanks for the name calling. Anyway...
As you wish, it will only take three simple questions to drag it out of you. Let's see if you're honest enough to answer the first (two-part question)

1) Why in your original post, did you list 4 horses for some years, 3 for others, and 7 for the most recent year of 2011?

For those following at home (not many these days), look at year 2002. Why stop at 4? What about the next 3, just like 2011? I'll leave that for y'all to ponder before divulging the answer.


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Ill even pre-load question 2. might be enough to get us closer to reality:

2) You did the numbers of the Keeneland Two-year old sale. Using your own accounting (your own 4-3-7 accounting) how does the Kenneland Select Yearling Sale compare to the numbers you have shown?

For those following, I am sure he HAS the numbers but won't divulge the answer. I don't care if he keeps the 7 in 2011, much fairer to the yearlings, and if we don't count the extra upkeep (also skew towards yearlings).


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:13 pm 
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You havent answered my question yet. What are your pinhooker secrets?

While you connive another way to avoid answering it, and finding new ways to obfuscate the truth, chew on these facts:



Florida pinhooker CIARUN DUNNE, operating as WAVERTREE STABLES, is the deserving winner of our annual 'Barretts Dash For Cash' award for the fastest 1/4 mile preview today (3-17-11).

Wavertree's colt by the 10-furlong Santa Anita Handicap winner ROCK HARD TEN covered the 440 yards in :21 1/5 seconds----only 1/5 second off the world record set by the great Quarter Horse DASH FOR CASH in 1976.

As our way of acknowledging WAVERTREE STABLES accomplishment we prepared a short study of its previous Barretts graduates past performances. All earnings are up-to-the-minute and include U.S. earnings only.

2010 Barretts March Sale

Wavertree consigned eight horses; six were sold for $897,000. Collectively they have made seven starts, no wins, and $33,000 in earnings. Two horses were RNA'd for a total of $64,000; they are unraced to date.

The fastest previewer (:10 flat) was UPHILL TIGGER. A $225,000 yearling by UNBRIDLED'S SONG he sold at Barretts for $475,000 to Narvick International. In three starts he has now earned $21,000.

2009 Barretts March Sale

Again Wavertree consigned eight horses. Five sold for $1.2 million; they have made 39 total starts with six wins and $268,000 in earnings. Three were RNA'd for $545,000; they made 23 starts and earned $117,000 in America.

The fastest previewer was THE SKINNY MAN (Indian Charlie) who was timed in :10 1/5. Bought for $240,000 by Doug O'Neill's brother Dennis, he is still a maiden after six starts, although he has earned $34,000.

2008 Barretts March Sale

Nine juveniles were entered by Wavertree Stables. All but one sold, for a total of $1.395 million. Collectively they earned about $415,000 in the U.S. The best performed of this consignment---and of all others---was VENTANA, a $147,000 yearling who was pinhooked for $410,000. He has earned $288,000 in 17 starts after previewing in :10 1/5. One baby RNA'd for $275,000; named BOYCHIK he raced three times, scored once, earning $30,000.

2007 Barretts March Sale

Wavertree's large consignment of 10 horses resulted in six sales ($1.67 million) and three RNA's ($315,000).

The fastest previewer JUMPIN CHARLIE (Indian Charlie) was purchased as a yearling for $80,000. His :10 second clocking prompted trainer JOHN SADLER to buy him for $520,000 at Barretts. He earned $68,000 from his two wins in eight starts.

Collectively the six sold horses earned $840,000; the three RNA's collected $486,000.

2006 Barretts March Sale

Florida-based Wavertree Stables shipped only four horses to California in 2006. Three of them were sold for $670,000. They earned $410,000. The fastest previewer at :21 1/5 was the DONERAILE COURT colt CODIO, a $130,000 yearling for which BOB BAFFERT paid $350,000. He later won four of 21 starts and $151,000.

The sole RNA (at $57,000) was NEUTRAL, which remained a maiden after five career starts.

2005 Barretts March Sale

Once again Wavertree Stables entered eight babies, and sold six of them for $1.32 million. The fastest previewer was POINT DETERMINED, sired by Belmont Stakes winner POINT GIVEN. Wavertree paid $290,000 for him at the Keeneland September sale; they received $750,000 of Mr. and Mrs. Robert Lewis' money. He earned $400,000 from 14 starts. Another of its fastest previewers, ITSAFFIRMATIVE (Songandaprayer) brought $200,000 from West Point Thoroughbreds, he earned $26,000 from his only two starts for them.

Collectively the six horses earned $735,000

The lone RNA (DAY DEE, by Tactical Cat) went home for $270,000 after recording one of the fastest preview times. He won three races, $61,000.

2004 Barretts March Sale

You guessed it---another eight horses carried the Wavertree banner in 2004. Again, six sold and two were bid back. Total sale prices: $1.34 million. Total earnings: $404,000.

Fastest previewer: SWISSLE STICK (Swiss Yodeler), a $70,000 weanling who stopped the clock at :21 flat. A few days later Mr. and Mrs. Lewis paid $600,000 for him. In 71 career starts he has earned $132,000 and was last seen in $3,000 claiming events in Ohio.

The two RNA's were bid in for $242,000. They made 16 total starts, with one win and $23,000 in earnings.

2003 Barretts March Sale

In its first major sojourn into the California market, Wavertree Stables entered five juveniles and sold four of them.

Fleetwood Bloodstock (Eric Anderson and Tim McMurry) liked the French Deputy filly FRENCH FLIGHT after her brilliant preview that they spent $400,000 of client STAN FULTON's money to obtain her. Five starts and one win later, she retired with $27,000 in the bank. Altogether the Wavertree consignment brought $845,000, and earned $250,000 in America. The sole RNA ($70,000) made four starts, with two wins, $49,000.


TOTALS:

Sold (44) $9,337,000

Earned (U.S.) 3,655,000


RNA (14) 1,854,000

Earned (U.S.) 766,000


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:34 pm 
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hahahaha. you rock.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:10 am 
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Thank you.

Now for your consignments. I know Kight doesnt sell at a lot of venues so I will leave it up to you to choose which of these annual auctions I should research. Hopefully you will select one in which he has consistently sold horses.

Your call. Give it your best shot.

And don't forget....you still havent answered my question about your well-kept pinhooker secrets.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:16 am 
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Duck it all you want, everyone (all 2 of us) is watching. It's easy, and more honest than your obvious subterfuge:

1) Why in your original post, did you list 4 horses for some years, 3 for others, and 7 for the most recent year of 2011?
PS: Don't forget to mention 2002.

That's an easy start. Spill.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:14 am 
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So, should I take your non-answer as a signal that you don't care which auction at which Kight sold should be my subject of investigation? As you can plainly see I have taken the fastest previewers as listed by the sales companies and extrapolated their career performances. On consignor studies I take all entrants, so in your case Kight's entire sales consignments will be checked.

If you believe yourself you can easily look up the information you seem to think I've omitted. It's all available on line for free. Post it here for all to see. Go for it!

Im still waiting for your answer-----tell everyone the secrets of pinhookers. Maybe Fire Slam or Hold Your Peace can help you.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:26 pm 
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Enough of your smoke and mirrors about "pinhooking secrets". Tell everyone what you're not saying:

1) Why in your original post, did you list 4 horses for some years, 3 for others, and 7 for the most recent year of 2011?
PS: Don't forget to mention 2002.

If you don't answer the questions, the answers will become clear anyway. What are you afraid of? All people have to do is look it up. This is a stunningly-simple logical discussion about reality. So there really is nothing for you to fear. Would you rather me just say it?


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Dray, it's clear who has done the work and who hasnt. Thus far youve come up with ZERO facts...only innuendos, which are your only defense against the truth.

REPEAT: If you think information I've provided is in error or lacks some critical element by all means RESEARCH it yourself. The tools are easy to use. In the meantime accept responsibility for obfuscating the only issue here---the horrible ROI on high-priced two-year-olds which have worked in warp-speed times.

You can twist and turn and spin all you like but if you dont like what I've proven....then disprove it with YOUR OWN WORK.

Put up or shut up.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:46 pm 
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I will make it real simple for you:

click on this website to find the sale, consignor or buyer you want to research: http://www.bloodhorse.com/auctions-tool ... rch/people

click on this website to research each horse's earnings/starts: equibase.com

click on each sales company's website to determine preview times.

Now get to work, stop your whining and prove whatever it is you're implying that I am withholding.

WORK, don't talk.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:01 pm 
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I'll make it even easier for you!

Click on this link to see ALL two-year-olds sold by you/Hoby Kight:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/auctions-tool ... TypeGroup=

Now all you have to do is click on equibase.com to determine each horse's career starts/wins/earnings.

Based ONLY on a cursory view I only recognize one outstanding racehorse, TIZ WONDERFUL, whom Kight sold for $475,000 (after paying $200,000 for him as a yearling). A very talented racehorse TIZ WONDERFUL won three races in five starts, earning $254,000. Cant help but wonder if he would have raced longer, and earned more money, if he hadnt been needlessly abused by you folks in 2yo sales prep.

Maybe you could tell us your pinhooker secrets about that.

Anyway, you now have no excuse to provide documentation for any accusation you may throw at me. Good luck.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:50 pm 
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I don't believe dray is a pinhooker - Hoby is the pinhooker. Dray has been an investor, I believe. But for all the shooting up of joints, steroids, drugs and pushing young horses past their limits, that is the pinhooker. If you ever go around the two year old sale grounds after everyone has left and it's just the cleanup crews, the tack rooms of the biggest consignors have big trashcans FULL of empty syringes. These are not so much pinhooker "secrets" as they are just plain cruelty to the poor animals. I also know of a particular instance where a horse actually sustained a fracture in the breeze. The consignor drugged the horse up pretty good to look fairly sound in the ring and sold it like that. The ones that actually make it thru the brutality of training for the two year old in training sales are a testament to the strength and soundness of the TB..

The market is where the change has to take place - if people just Stop Going to these kinds of sales and supporting the brutality, then pinhookers will not be able to make the big bucks and will eventually quit.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Everything you say is true, Madelyn. However, investors in pinhooking syndicates are just as responsible as their hatchet men are for the despicable treatment of their dispensible investments.

IMO education is the only solution to this huge elephant in the TB industry's living room. Buyers must be made aware of the utter financial foolishness of these sales. Thats why Ive developed an email list of close to 5,000 owners, trainers, breeders, press and other related types to whom I send the 2yo studies I included here. My Barretts study is quite extensive. It includes full race records for hundreds of Barretts fastest previewers since 1999.

Anyone who wants a copy should PM me for it.

I doubt if we'll be hearing much more from Dray on this subject. His little charade has run its course.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:29 pm 
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I invested in horses to pinhook Madelyn, you are correct. My record speaks for itself.

But my issue here is that "Barcaldine" has an agenda. He's not here to point out that high priced 2YO don't do well on the track. High priced horses at EVERY sale don't do well (more on this later)… He wrote: "the only solution to this huge elephant in the TB industry's living room. Buyers must be made aware of the utter financial foolishness of these sales. Thats why Ive developed an email list of close to 5,000 owners, trainers, breeders, press and other related types to whom I send the 2yo studies I included here."

To be clear, he is here trying to dismantle a practice that gets more popular every year (Granted, in these down times, all sales are taking a hit). But that's the point: HE would show sales results for 2YO sales as going down, without regard to the entire industry, just to get anyone to "think" something is happening that isn't. Skewed data, molded to fit his agenda.

Here's what you have to ask yourself, whenever he posts his propaganda:
"COMPARED TO WHAT?"

Example: He listed "Keeneland April Sale: Top sellers earn only 11% of prices". Some years he listed 4 horses. Other 3, and the latest year 7. (of course for a two year old that’s not quite fair, many of the 2011 horses have just got a year under their belts, or haven't started, and as pointed out by another poster, are earning more and have races left). But THAT isn't even the deceptive tilt he puts on the numbers. Far worse. For 2002 he listed four horses. Why? Why sometimes three? Why seven? He wouldn't answer. I will.

Dig deeper into this deception:
For 2002 he listed 4 horses:
1-TO TERAS
2-PRAY FOR ACES
3-STELLAR
4-GOLDEN PENNY

They cost $2.95 million to buy, and earned $280k. He is correct. Wow that’s ugly! 9% ROI!

While everyone is awed by his numbers, we need to ask…

WHY 4 HORSES?

Let's dig deeper.
What about the 5th horse he omitted?
5-SCRIMSHAW cost $550,000 and earned back $461,000
Maybe it was an honest mistake.

The 6th horse?
6-LOGICIAN cost $520,000 and earned back $306,000
That's weird. Left off two stakes winners.

Horse 7?
7-CARTHAGE cost $440,000 and earned back $339,000
Hmmmmm.

So the top 7 cost $4,460,000 and earned back $1,386,800!
They recovered 30% of their sale price. Still a Baaaaaaaaaad investment.
Horrid I say!!!!!! Horrible!

COMPARED TO WHAT?

Since he won't do it, I must ask… How did the 2002 Keeneland SELECT yearling sale compare?

The top 7 horses at the 2002 Keeneland SELECT yearling sale cost $6,575,000. At the same rate as the two year olds, they would have earned back only $2,044,000 (about 30%). Of course, that number would really be pitiful… incomprehensible! And what if we KEPT his skewed numbers? What if we used the 9% number just for kicks? The top 7 horses cost $6,575,000 and would earn back ONLY ABOUT 600K! That, admittedly, would be a travesty.

So... how much DID those 7 top yearlings earn back for their new owners?

‘bout 100k.

You're reading that right: $100,460. Stop.
That’s for all 7 horses. In total.
100K? Is that possible? Admitted, I could be wrong.
I simply added numbers on the internet like he has. Please check it.
Please.

So… not even including an additional year of training and feeding the yearling, you were afforded the “opportunity” to make a return of ... TA DAH! Less than 2%. It seems buying race horses is a losing proposition, no matter how you slice, or alter or twist the reality of the cake But Michael should be OUTRAGED! WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES? THE NEWSLETTERS TO THOUSANDS OF YEARLING BUYERS? THE LONG WINDED POSTS ON FORUMS? WHERE ARE THE CRAFTILY WRITTEN ARTICLES about the yearling sales? Where is "Keeneland April Sale: Top sellers earn only 1.5% of prices" Oh wait… he SOLD at yearling sales. Nevermind.

Total all the years to see how frightening this really gets.

Here's the hidden secret that he won't tell you:
ALL horse sales have HORRIBLE ROI, especially at the high end, with yearling sales being the absolute worst. That proves nothing about yearling sales, btw.

I'll leave you with this:
I have seen horror shows with yearlings and 2YO. You wouldn't believe what weenling/yearlings go through with both cosmetic and serious operations to correct "flaws". Injections? HA! The big sales companies want money just like those pinhookers. Let's not talk about what done to these animals AT EVERY STEP OF THEIR LIVES by those that don't care about anything but profit. Why do you think yearling consignors sell to two year old consignors? The good ones do it with integrity, both yearling AND 2YO. The bad ones don't. KNOW WHO YOU BUY FROM.

I tried to change the game, I put my money where my mouth is. I "slow breezed" horses. They galloped beautifully. One person came to see them. One. They didn't have money. Like everyone told me: buyers want speed. They want near race ready horses. They don't want to carry yearlings for a year, or two, or forever.

Here's questions that matter: Why can't we stop the whip at 2YO sales? Why can't we limit breeze times? Sorry, change at every instance needs to happen. Yearling sales also. How dare they charge ME 200 dollars to run a steroid test!!!!!! Every yearling MUST BE TESTED for medications, period. I could care less about what Barcladine says, he is transparent and obvious. His rhetoric takes our eyes of the real prize, the potential for real change. 2YO sales are NOT the culprit. Yearling sales are NOT the culprit. Lack of regulation, oversight and sanity IS. And fairy-tales won't get us there. LAWS will.

I have left the sport because no one wants to change what needs to. As bad as the sales are, racing is worse. So I am done. Until things change, I will no longer support the game at any level. I don't even bet the races. I passed on the Derby. Done. Our leaders are corrupt, visionless ________ (fill in whatever nasty word you like). That's why I haven't been around much. I haven't bought a horse in years. In some sick way, I like guys who are trying to tear the sport down. We need it. But not this way. LASTING change is about integrity and honor. The government may be our only hope.

I now fade back into my "other" life, away from racing. I pray for all you folks out there that care for the horse and try to make an honest go of it. I really admire you. Peace to everyone, even you Barcaldine.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:06 am 
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dray, I agree.. but demanding integrity and honor in racing when it doesn't exist today in any form in any other industry in America might be a bit naive. Today's (lack of) ethics are a product of the excessive successes of the biz school grads who skirt the laws, to drive businesses into the black through the shadows of the gray areas in a ruthless manner with no regard for truth, justice or the American way...

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