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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:17 am 
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Starters Handicap

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It's laughable that an investor in a high risk-high return venture finds it necessary to blame others for his failure. It's also pathetic that, in defense of his involvement in the equine ponzi schemes known as pinhooking syndicates, he continues to find rare examples of when these scams actually worked.

His examples harken back to my earlier comment when I likened these selective comments to the racetrack gambler who tells his wife only of his winning Daily Double ticket but fails to inform her about the subsequent, bigger losses.

I have no sympathy for people who lose money trying to make a quick buck when that effort comes at the direct expense of the animals, and of the industry. Dray is no "sportsman;" he's a failed investor whose products happened to be horses.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:45 am 
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I find dray's "flight from the industry" and his criticisms of it to be something akin to sulking. Definitely in the "go big or go home" category, at least. If you really are FOR change, leaving won't make that happen - staying in the game and doing it right is much more likely to have an effect. Speaking from experience at the yearling sales, the big dollar horses are BIG horses - they look like mature three year olds. The prep that goes into making a horse look THAT big THAT fast is, in a way, setting the horse up to fail. I was recently stabled, at a yearling sale, next to a "big" consignor. It was confided in me that their biggest yearling (who weighed something around 1100 lbs) wasn't going to get the expected price since arthritis had shown up in his hocks from all of that early work. Still, they ended up getting $26K for him.. they had been hoping for six figures.

I'll Have Another was likely just a nice, healthy, well muscled looking YEARLING - not a mammoth over 16h and weighing in like a heavyweight boxer, so he brought only $11K which would be a loser on a $25K stud fee. Of course we never saw that $25K check and don't know the insides of that - could have been a foal share or something. But the breeder is probably better off now that there will be a KBIF award at the end of the year for $50K for the Derby and $23K for his other wins..

I bought a nice normal yearling filly one year at Fasig Tipton for $1,000 (just like All Squared Away) and she went on to 70 starts and $111K in earnings. In fact I made out on all of those $1K yearlings (I got 4) - the very least of them brought $2500 as a jumper prospect. Buying at the high end has the greatest risk/least reward factor, whereas at the bottom, there is nowhere to go but up.. :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:57 am 
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Quote:
It's laughable that an investor in a high risk-high return venture finds it necessary to blame others for his failure.


Um…who said anything anything about failure? I have done very well in those syndicates. Maybe it's your failures that make you unable to discuss this rationally? Either way, I thank you for your concern.

Quote:
It's also pathetic that, in defense of his involvement in the equine ponzi schemes known as pinhooking syndicates, he continues to find rare examples of when these scams actually worked.


Oh, the point wasn't that I found them... it's that you deliberately deleted them. Breathe. Think about THAT. Look in the mirror. Your actions speak far louder than your lack of unbiased words.

Quote:
I find dray's "flight from the industry" and his criticisms of it to be something akin to sulking. Definitely in the "go big or go home" category, at least. If you really are FOR change, leaving won't make that happen - staying in the game and doing it right is much more likely to have an effect.


You called me naïve in one post and sulking in the other. You are right on both accounts.

So the fact is, I was for real change… and fought the good fight. But eventually, we realize what's what. A flea doesn't rule the dog. Lots of stories to tell, but suffice it to say, I didn't love the environment enough to continue fighting for change. I was fighting from a position of weakness. My decision, and I believe it saved me mounds of money and frustration. In other words, Madelyn… I no longer cared to "have an effect". I just wanted to run… along with MANY other owners. No longer will MY money oil THEIR machine.

While were at it… you want to know what might work for change? Good, honest and reliable data. Instead of the propaganda posted by Barcladine which is skewed, basic and easy to throw together… how about data that really matters. Like this:

Use research to uncover hard, unbiased facts:
"X" amount of horses pass through Yearling sales.
"X" amount of horses pass through 2 Year-old sales.
Of the yearlings that sell (that DON'T go to pinhookers), what is the percentage that start? That win? That earn back money for real ROI data?
Compare that to the 2 Year-Old Sales… what is the percentage that start? That win? That earn back money for real ROI data?
NOW we have information that matters and might prompt change… or not. Who knows.
No one listens or cares, even if the data has value. Again, fighting leadership that doesn't care.

Quote:
Speaking from experience at the yearling sales, the big dollar horses are BIG horses - they look like mature three year olds.


Oh, yes. I have seen it. It's all over this unregulated business.

Again, peace and *poof*


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:13 am 
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Off you go.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:50 am 
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Location: Zambezi
I know its not nearly as much fun to be positive in this game, as it is to be negative, and if you dig long enough, its certainly easy to pull the negative statistics. I prefer to look at the positive, and the list of OBS stakes graduates shows that so many really good horses come from these sales; this is why people keep coming back and buying. They are looking for the positives and the fun, and there is enough there to keep people coming back year after year.

http://www.obssales.com/category/florid ... uate-news/

http://obssales.com/OBSPAGES/STAKES.HTM

No, Im not open for an argument about this, Im actually done with it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:43 pm 
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New suckers are born every day, even in Zambezi.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:39 am 
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Please. Suckers is so derogatory. Another way to look at this is the industry would not exist if there were not new participants. People have to be able to see an upside, or at least a light at the end of the tunnel. The point about the sales prices on the highest priced horses not providing any kind of profit has been made. This is a public forum where people are welcome to express opinions, you included Barcaldine. The forum has changed quite a bit and name calling is just no longer accepted.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:16 am 
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madelyn wrote:
Please. Suckers is so derogatory. Another way to look at this is the industry would not exist if there were not new participants. People have to be able to see an upside, or at least a light at the end of the tunnel. The point about the sales prices on the highest priced horses not providing any kind of profit has been made. This is a public forum where people are welcome to express opinions, you included Barcaldine. The forum has changed quite a bit and name calling is just no longer accepted.


:lol: Furthermore, Zambezi is a river. Suckers born there are usually eaten by crocodiles long before hucksters can get to them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:01 pm 
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The biggest dirty little secret is the vast amount of steroids that are pumped into yearlings to get them buffed up for the 2 year old sales. Many of the individuals at Ocala in March were just absurd how puffed up they were. It is not natural. All they have to do is stop 60 days before the sale, and many don't anyway, because buyers don't have them tested after purchase anyway, so why worry.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:51 am 
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Location: illinois
I pose a question to you folks. I have sold horses at 2 year old sales. Made a profit, but not hooked in with the in crowd like Eisaman and some of the others listed in this thread, so have never seen the big money. I have raced a lot of horses, and I have often said to myself how I would never buy a horse at the two year old sales, it was obvious most had been hot housed and trained like the Derby was next week.
My question is what would happen if a consignor started marketing his horses at a 2 year old sales as being trained drug free, no steroids, no painkillers, no pushing them. If you want a beauty contest horse, go down the road. We want you folks to have a succesful race horse for years. They have been turned out and trained in a calm, natural way with out pushing these young horses. We breeze them, but we don't want their fastest times today, but in 6 months, when you can make money with them.
What would be the response from the buyers, and what would the big time consigners have to say about you, and treat you?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:57 am 
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I know that has been tried, and I think the horses simply did not sell with RNA's that reflected the investment. I believe you would lose money doing that.

In fact, I believe dray, who is a member here, did that with a group of pinhook yearlings and ended up taking them home.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:41 am 
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I think you'd have to first prove that the 2 year old sales dont produce runners and I believe that would be difficult to do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:08 pm 
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madelyn wrote:
In fact, I believe dray, who is a member here, did that with a group of pinhook yearlings and ended up taking them home.


I did it with 3 horses. In four days, got 1 look (asked to come out of the stall). Zero vetted, and zero sold. But we got a lot of questions: "Why are these horses in the sale if they don't breeze fast?" Noone cared. Buyers want speed. Speed = sale.

You ask how the horses did after the sale? Not bad. All 3 started (and won) and LOHAD raced about 30 times... but none of them made back the original investment. In other words, they were horses.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:10 pm 
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IMO most pinhookers are dishonest animal abusers. They promise their investors a quick buck return on their money and fulfillment of that pledge is their only objective.

Having said that, the sales companies (including OBS, whose board of directors are ALL pinhookers) must impose the same regulations on the sales entrants as their state imposes on race entrants. That means TESTING, preferably pre- and post- preview.

But, since the sales company executives are all geldings this will likely never be done. In the meantime, countless horses are hurt, their race careers ruined or diminished, and their purchasers raped.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Maiden Special Weight

Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:39 pm
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Location: illinois
I appreciate your responses. There just has to be a better way.
To expand on what I mean, I am not talking about not breezing the 2 year olds at the sale. We would breeze them, but not with the goal of getting 21.1 for 2 furlongs. I know that the stride analysis is really being used by many of the end users, and the gallop out is more important to some buyers than the blow out times. Is it unrealistic to target this market? Can the stride still look good even though it is a paced breeze instead of a blow out type of work?
I am talking about marketing our consignment like this. No drugs have been used on these horses. You won't find any needles at our farm or in the barn here. No steroids, no pain killers. The horses have been turned out several days a week during training to keep their minds fresh. We have trained them with the goal of long term soundness, not bullet works for next week.
This open ups the fact that by saying this, you in a roundabout way are taking a shot at the current consigners. I talked with Barclay Tagg at the Maryland sale, and he has concerns about the way a lot of the 2 year olds have been trained. I am sure he is not the only trainer.
Am I completely off the wall on this?


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