Pedigree Query

We bought some quality Alfalfa. And gradually switched the stallions over to it. But then after about 4 days, their stools showed it too rich for them. so went back and bought a 40% Alfalfa and 60% Orchard grass mix. Any suggestions on adding a flake of Alfalfa to the midday feeding (5:30am, 12:30pm, and 6:30pm)?
Gary

You will probably get a wide variety of opinions here - alfalfa is VERY high in protein, and there are a lot of issues with using a legume as forage, vs. a grass.

I recently worked at a sale with a new consignor. He thought he was doing a great thing by getting our field rough sale projects pure alfalfa hay for the sale grounds - but after their second meal they started with diarrhea and gas.. so I traded there for some timothy to cut it with, and increased the grain we were feeding. If I'd had cider vinegar I would have added that also.

Straight alfalfa is, in my opinion, much too hot a hay for anything but lactating mares and growing babies, and even then I prefer it in a 50/50 mix. It has also been proven as a link to intestinal stones (enteroliths):
http://www.equiworld.net/uk/horsecare/e ... oliths.htm
http://www.kbrhorse.net/hea/entrlith.html
http://www.michigan-horse.com/enteroliths.htm

Alfalfa is SO palatable - the beasties just LOVE the stuff. But it has so many side effects feeding it is not my first choice. I will only buy alfalfa if I can't get anything else. I certainly don't feed it to my stallion.

Madelyn thanks for your point on the hay.. So is the hay we bought.. 40% Alfalfa and 60% Orchard grass mix, still too rich for the stallions? We also have an 8 month old saddlebred colt, but he's been living in the pasture off round bales of Orchard grass, Timothy and some Brome. We have him and a 3 yr old Morgan mare and a 16 yr old Saddlebred Brood mare all eating the same round bales. I've been feeding the 4 yr old TB mare a flake of alfalfa along with the Round bale hay we tear off and give to her in her stall..
I have been selling bodybuilding supplements for probably 25 years so am wanting to do this right with our horses. On the dvd I posted about they were using supplements, but couldn't tell what the liquid was in the bottles? I realize there are several supplement products out there and find the nutrition area for Equines to be very interesting.
This Forum has been a blessing and both myself and my wife really look forward to reading the different posts.
Gary

The 40/60 mix should be fine. Just watch the hindgut - if you have horses with wet ploppy poop, feed cider vinegar and some whole oats to reduce the ph and provide more fiber - beet pulp is also really good, very high in fiber (soak it in water before feeding to prevent choking). But if you can get straight orchard grass or timothy, you can help prevent colic. Then you can control the quantity of alfalfa, by feeding it in a ratio. Remember, horses eat grass. They need a diet very high in fiber. A legume alone will not fulfill that need.

I don't know much about Brome - it is not grown in our area. I have heard that some Sudan grasses can be toxic to horses fed in quantity. Again, we don't come across that kind of hay here.

Thanks Madelyn.
I've tried following what they had been feeding him. 2 scoops Whole oats in the morning (approx. 6.8 lbs). With Hay 2 flakes, 12:30 feeding, 1 scoop whole oats and hay 2 flakes. 6:30pm feeding 1 scoop whole oats with 1 1/2lbs of Grow and Win and 1 scoop 12% sweet feed (approx 3.2 lbs) and hay 2 flakes.
If the hay isn't used up I cut back accordingly. I pretty much feed by how they are looking. But over the past 3 weeks we've had him, his body weight looks very good along with his coat etc.
Yep we went through the ploopy poop last week and had to change the hay choice/ about 3 days later he went back to normal. I tried making the evening mash as they told me, but after the 2nd week he was leaving food in his feed bin over night and that wasn't normal for him.
If Vinegar is needed how much do you give them and is it just once a day?
Gary

You can give 1-2 cups of cider vinegar a day. If you mix it with a sweet feed it will be more palatable.

Madelyn knows much more about horses than I do, but I thought that I would throw in my two cents worth.
Stallions that are working (breeding) and weigh about 1,100 to 1,200 lbs only need about 22 Mcals per day to maintain condition and do their work. Alfalfa provides about 2.21 Mcals per kg or 2.2 lbs. oats provide 3. 3 Mcals per kg ordinary coastal bermuda which we have here provides 1.17 Mcals per kg. It's real easy to over feed when using alfalfa and I feel that is why your boys got the scours. The more energy you can get from forages (hays and legumes) the better off you are. If my math is right, you can get all the energy you need from 20-25 lbs of alfalfa twice a day. Just an example.

Roger, do you know about other kinds of hay? I would be VERY interested in some kind of table showing the content of timothy, orchard grass, etc., which I suspect is much closer to your coastal bermuda.

My experience with alfalfa is empirical. I didn't really know WHY it gave horses diarrhea, just that it did. Then I found the data about hindgut ph and enteroliths. I'm afraid I'm not a scientist of any kind, just a horseman.

There are two sources of information, that I think all horse people need and they can be bought at Amazon.com. They are published by the Nationa Research Council. Nutrient Requirements of Horses Fifth Revised Edition 1989. It is fairly cheap (under $20) and Nutrient Requirements of Horses Sixth Revised Edition. It runs $90 or so. If you can get only one now the fifth edition would be the one I would get, it has better charts and more feeds.

Orchard grass hay runs in the range of .64 to .78 Mcals/lb of hay depending on when it was cut.

Timothy runs .94 to .72 Mcals/lb again depending on when it was cut.

I'm not scientist, just an old Ag Ed major who liked his feeds and feeding classes.

madelyn wrote:My experience with alfalfa is empirical. I didn't really know WHY it gave horses diarrhea, just that it did. Then I found the data about hindgut ph and enteroliths. I'm afraid I'm not a scientist of any kind, just a horseman.

Most people seem to find that alfalfa can cause diarrhea. For some reason, I have never had that problem. Maybe it is my farmer? It seems to be absolutely top grade alfalfa, medium stem, really good leafy stuff with just the right moisture. I have an uncle who is an alfalfa farmer in MN who visited me, and he was really impressed with the quality of my hay.

I had a horse in training, and when I brought it home, the trainer gravely told me that alfalfa would give him the runs, and not to feed it. Well, I've got 50 tons of it at home, so that's what he's going to eat. What do you know, he never got loose stools even once. I've never had an enterolith myself, but I know it can cause them.

Agree with Maj, we're in Ca though and choice of what kind of hay we get is limited, for ex if you really need timothy you can work to find it at $22 bale and then cross your fingers. Alfalfa is our staple but there is a learning curve to feed it safely. I feed alfalfa in the morning and oat mix in evening. In the summer months when I worry more about sand colic I watch my gelding like a hawk for manure dryness and increase the alfalfa ration and decrease the oat mix for the fact that it does seem to produce manure that has more moisture.

We only feed 3rd or 4th cutting alf. We've had no problems with the mares and/or foals eating it at all. They are turned outside as much as possible so are eating the grass mixture in the field but during the winter when it is gone flakes are provided outside for them and during the summer when they are in due to the heat they are fed it. We feed the yearlings a mixture of alf. and a little lower grade hay just to keep their energy levels down and manageable.

I feed one flake of alfalfa and one-two flakes timothy 2 x a day, plus a feeding of one flake timothy mid day, plus a Complete feed (triple crown complete) to the two year olds at the farm.
My guys in training at the track get one flake of alfalfa twice a day, plus timothy hay. I have no idea how much they end up getting of that, I just know its probably 3-4 flakes twice a day.
I never have problems with the alfalfa, and have suspected that it helps for weight gain. The horses love it.