I bought up to ID a 2009 TB filly from CA. About a week before we went down to get her in Nov/11 the stable manager had the "Equine Dentist" come in to do her teeth, a float and wolf teeth if necessary. Later on she called me said all went OK but the dentist broke the wolf tooth when he pulled it....didn't think anything about it as that happens.
About 2 days later she called me again said the filly was not eating and just nibbling her food, drinking fine. I knew right away it was her mouth and told her to look and see if she could find anything....nothing. So I went down to pick her up after several days of her not eating full meals.
The day after I got her while on the road in the AM, she had a huge blow out just under her bottom lip just behind the chin...very gross and pussy. We cleaned it up and it healed. Then about a week later it blew again....cleaned it up put antibiotic cream on it, it healed and then again burst some time later. Finally after this going on for some weeks we got the vet in.
Vet checked her teeth and her back molar was tilted to the inside of her mouth....oh and I should mention after it bust the first time when we picked her up, she started eating again....so the vet says she thinks that the "Equine Dentist" popped her cap off and caused damage and the bone may be dead or infected....so we put her on a 2 week long regiment of oral antibiotics. It cleared up to a small pinky fingernail size sore that is closed but leaks puss. Vet wants to give it a week or so and then take the tooth if it does not go away.
Has anyone had this happen or experience tooth damage like this? Bone damage or dead bone? If so what did you do and what do you think the life of this filly will be as a race horse? What do you think taking that tooth will do long term?
Infected tooth
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Shammy Davis
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I've floated teeth for over 20 years. Without examining the mouth, it is very hard to give advice, but if the emerging permanent molar is out of alignment with the remaining arcade and the horse is continuing to experience infections, it sounds to me that removing the tooth, as recommended by the VET, maybe an alternative, but not your only one. If what you say is correct that the temporary cap has been removed or prematurely popped, then the problem is a little more complicated.
You need to be sure that the temporary molar is in fact gone. VETS with little experience working with teeth have been known to make a mistake.
It is unlikely that the emerging permanent molar will have much of a visible appearance above the gum. Removing the permanent emerging molar or even a cap does cause a problem. A horse's teeth are opposing and the incisors and molars should be flush to properly grind food. When you remove a tooth the problem is that the opposing tooth is unopposed and may project into the void, thus restricting or obstructing the lateral excursion of the upper and lower mandibles as the horse grinds it food. Also food will be able to build up in the void causing bacterial gum infections.
At 36 months the temporary molars in positions one and two have been replaced with permanents and the remaining permanents are beginning to emerge pushing the temporary molars out. If I understand you correctly, it is temporary molar (cap) in position six (the far back) on the lower arcade that is gone and that emerging permanent molar is out of alignment. If the newly emerging misaligned permanent molar and it supporting jaw bone is undamaged, then removing the permanent molar may eliminate any further problems for the short term, but you are looking at serious long term problems beginning when all the permanent teeth have emerged at five years of a age.
As you have an investment in the horse, you might want to have the horse examined by another equine dentist or a veterinarian who specializes in corrective dentistry. Removing a tooth is a serious decision and will effect the long term health of your horse and this is not an issue for a general practice VET to deal with. Believe me! An inexperienced practitioner can make a minor problem into a long term disaster. Get a specialist.
One the best equine dentistry schools in the nation is in ID.
http://www.equinedentalacademy.com/
Call them and get some advice before you do anything further regarding the removal of any teeth. I'm sure they can give you a referral to somone who specializes in working with these problems. Also get a second opinion on the broken wolf tooth. You could be facing problems with that also. You want to insure that entire wolf tooth has been removed as the snaffle bit can aggravate the gum tissue around the remaining stump of the tooth. It needs to be completely removed. Leaving it broken off under the gum is not good. It is not a serious problem and probably can removed without much problem.
The following might be helpful to understand what you are dealing with.
http://www.radford.edu/fsinger/42511P.E ... 0teeth.ppt
You need to be sure that the temporary molar is in fact gone. VETS with little experience working with teeth have been known to make a mistake.
It is unlikely that the emerging permanent molar will have much of a visible appearance above the gum. Removing the permanent emerging molar or even a cap does cause a problem. A horse's teeth are opposing and the incisors and molars should be flush to properly grind food. When you remove a tooth the problem is that the opposing tooth is unopposed and may project into the void, thus restricting or obstructing the lateral excursion of the upper and lower mandibles as the horse grinds it food. Also food will be able to build up in the void causing bacterial gum infections.
At 36 months the temporary molars in positions one and two have been replaced with permanents and the remaining permanents are beginning to emerge pushing the temporary molars out. If I understand you correctly, it is temporary molar (cap) in position six (the far back) on the lower arcade that is gone and that emerging permanent molar is out of alignment. If the newly emerging misaligned permanent molar and it supporting jaw bone is undamaged, then removing the permanent molar may eliminate any further problems for the short term, but you are looking at serious long term problems beginning when all the permanent teeth have emerged at five years of a age.
As you have an investment in the horse, you might want to have the horse examined by another equine dentist or a veterinarian who specializes in corrective dentistry. Removing a tooth is a serious decision and will effect the long term health of your horse and this is not an issue for a general practice VET to deal with. Believe me! An inexperienced practitioner can make a minor problem into a long term disaster. Get a specialist.
One the best equine dentistry schools in the nation is in ID.
http://www.equinedentalacademy.com/
Call them and get some advice before you do anything further regarding the removal of any teeth. I'm sure they can give you a referral to somone who specializes in working with these problems. Also get a second opinion on the broken wolf tooth. You could be facing problems with that also. You want to insure that entire wolf tooth has been removed as the snaffle bit can aggravate the gum tissue around the remaining stump of the tooth. It needs to be completely removed. Leaving it broken off under the gum is not good. It is not a serious problem and probably can removed without much problem.
The following might be helpful to understand what you are dealing with.
http://www.radford.edu/fsinger/42511P.E ... 0teeth.ppt
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
Shammy you have been very helpful. You gave me alot more to think about then my vet did. I must admit teeth are not my thing when it comes to horses care.
I will look deeper for sure and get a specialist on board.
Also with the wolf tooth, I guess I should have mentioned, but it was not the wolf tooth it was that cap that got popped and I think I was told the wolf tooth so I would not make an issue. I have been trying to contact this Dentist in CA but to no avail.
Thank you again!
I will look deeper for sure and get a specialist on board.
Also with the wolf tooth, I guess I should have mentioned, but it was not the wolf tooth it was that cap that got popped and I think I was told the wolf tooth so I would not make an issue. I have been trying to contact this Dentist in CA but to no avail.
Thank you again!
Shammy....I just went to the school's web site and they are actually looking for live horses for teaching and their next dates are the 20th of Feb.
I will call first thing and see if I can get this filly in.....I hope she is a good candidate with the issues she has. Just so happens I have to take her to Boise anyway, we are 8 hrs north.....works great!!
Thanks again!
I will call first thing and see if I can get this filly in.....I hope she is a good candidate with the issues she has. Just so happens I have to take her to Boise anyway, we are 8 hrs north.....works great!!
Thanks again!
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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Your are welcome. I hope you get her in for an examine. The ID equine dental school was the first school of its kind in the nation. Now VET schools are putting more emphasis on it. I learned to float teeth when I was a young farrier, but I actually went to dental school some years later to learn more. There are two other schools like the one in ID. One is in VA and I see one being advertised in TX. All have a very solid reputation training both Vets and EqDT, but the ID and VA schools are known world-wide and have international students. The ID school actually designs and manufactures equine tools and apparatus. I've purchased a couple of very nice floats from them. I hope your experience with them is a good one.
I hope you let the people who were managing and caring for your filly that not being upfront with you about what happened was wrong and that you are not happy. There was absolutely no reason for your filly to suffer through those weeks of being off her feed and the disccomfort of the jaw infection. Lastly, with a young horses, I'm very cautious about floating for the same reasons that you are now dealing with. Floating can dislodge caps and I refrain (in the majority of cases) from floating until all permanent teeth are established. In most cases juveniles will shed their caps and no one knows the difference and too be honest, in normal cases, caps really don't require floating. The normal regimen of eating hay and grazing keeps them from developing points and sharp edges.
My namesake, the real SHAMMY DAVIS, had a crooked lateral upper incisor when I bought him. It was apparent that his cap had been forcefully dislodged prematurely and left the emerging incisor out of alignment, but he never had any real problems with eating so I didn't bother with it. Molars are a different subject all together. If you can go without removing that molar, that is the best situation and your filly will benefit from that for the rest of her life.
A real quick read on equine dentistry is "Sound Mouth-Sound Horse; The Gager Method of Equine Dental Care" by E. R. Gager and Bob "Dusty" Rhodes. It will put things in perpsective (in layman's terms) for you and you'll be glad you read it. It maybe out of print, but try one of the used book websites.
Let us all know about your experience at the dental school. Best wishes.
I hope you let the people who were managing and caring for your filly that not being upfront with you about what happened was wrong and that you are not happy. There was absolutely no reason for your filly to suffer through those weeks of being off her feed and the disccomfort of the jaw infection. Lastly, with a young horses, I'm very cautious about floating for the same reasons that you are now dealing with. Floating can dislodge caps and I refrain (in the majority of cases) from floating until all permanent teeth are established. In most cases juveniles will shed their caps and no one knows the difference and too be honest, in normal cases, caps really don't require floating. The normal regimen of eating hay and grazing keeps them from developing points and sharp edges.
My namesake, the real SHAMMY DAVIS, had a crooked lateral upper incisor when I bought him. It was apparent that his cap had been forcefully dislodged prematurely and left the emerging incisor out of alignment, but he never had any real problems with eating so I didn't bother with it. Molars are a different subject all together. If you can go without removing that molar, that is the best situation and your filly will benefit from that for the rest of her life.
A real quick read on equine dentistry is "Sound Mouth-Sound Horse; The Gager Method of Equine Dental Care" by E. R. Gager and Bob "Dusty" Rhodes. It will put things in perpsective (in layman's terms) for you and you'll be glad you read it. It maybe out of print, but try one of the used book websites.
Let us all know about your experience at the dental school. Best wishes.
Very awesome I GOT HER IN!! She has to be there Feb 22 so it works great as I have to bring my other filly down to Boise anyway for training.
I sure hope they are able to save the tooth AND it is a learning experience for the students too.....so win win.
Thanks again Shammy I may not have fond this place in time on my own for this next schooling date and been able to get her in, next one is not until Nov.
I will let you know what they find!!
I sure hope they are able to save the tooth AND it is a learning experience for the students too.....so win win.
Thanks again Shammy I may not have fond this place in time on my own for this next schooling date and been able to get her in, next one is not until Nov.
I will let you know what they find!!
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
Oleos93: I was thinking that you might want to know the following so that you know the right questions to ask.
As you know with young horses, sometimes things look frightfully bad and yet given time for reasons known only to the good lord, problems rectify themselves without anyone doing anything.
You need to have the filly examined no matter what, but I see there is a positive side to this situation if I have understood you correctly. If this is furthest molar position on either side of the upper or lower arcades, there is only one neighboring molar to the inside. This is good because removing the sixth molar does not comprise or leave a voided space between teeth in the arcade As far as I know there are no such things as implants in equine dentistry and so when you pull a tooth with neighboring teeth you leave a void. The key here with your filly is that the jaw and arcade is not utilmately compromised by the lost of an interior molar and the void in the rear of the jaw is just bigger but less likely to collect food or weakening a neighboring molars as would occur if hemmed in my other teeth. To give you an example, when the dentist pulls a human wisdom tooth, he really doesn't compromise the arcade. Most dentist recommend the removal of wisdom teeth because they tend to crowd the jaw. That's the good news for your filly, if I understood you correctly.
The other side to the equation is more complicated because you are working with a permanent molar that is just beginning its transit or erupt through the gum. For a tooth to be removed it must be elevated and loosen from the jaw bone before the extractor can be used to remove it. With emerging permanent at this filly's age the special tool called an elevator that is used might not be able to fully grasp the crown to elevate and loosen it from the jaw bone. This means that you might be looking at a surgical procedure.
If this were my filly, I'd be very cautious and patient with what I decided to do. If the examination reveals that the tooth needs to be removed because this is a critical situation or emergency, your choices are limited. You should remove the tooth. The post consequences can be dealt with and it probably will not effect the racing of the filly. You will have to monitor the situation more closely than you would with other horses, but that is not a bad thing. I had a stallion here that had a fifth position molar removed and no one told me when he arrived. He had the same symptoms that you described and it was a mess until we got it cleared up. I had to work on him every three months after that because his previous owners left the situation uncared for and the opposing molar actually locked up his jaw movement.
Back to your filly. If the examination indicates the problem it is not critical or emergency, which I don't think it is. I'd ask the following questions.
Is there any harm to waiting and seeing how the permanent molar errupts? Is there a chance the permanent molar will erupt correctly and/or is there some procedure that might correct the transit of the tooth into the correct position? (I've been retired for a few years, so there might be such a procedure. I only floated teeth and occasionally extracted teeth so I wouldn't be surprised at any new procedures in this regard.)
If the answer is no or that there is minimal concern with waiting, I'd wait and let nature take its course. There is already a slight void there anyway with the lost of cap and it appears that when the infection is under control, the filly is on her feed and in good health. The antibiotics will certainly correct the situation unless their is another problem like a broken jaw or damage to soft tissue. If you wait, absent any adverse reactions, you can have her examined every 3 to 6 months. When she turns five without harm to her health, you can revisit the corrective procedures, if necessary. (Everyone who works with her should be aware of her problem.)
I say all of this because I'm sure the school will be delighted to examine your filly to show the students the problem and I think they will agree to working on the filly if you wait and come back later. Your filly is the perfect teaching tool. This is a good school with a great reputation, but their job is teaching and your job is making good decisions about your horse. Sometimes, the two are opposed.
When asking for a treatment options and prognosis I always demand that that I be given at the very least three options. One of the options on the list must be "let's wait and see." If a vet professional doesn't offer multiple options, I get a second opinion and rarely return for other visits.
If you need anymore information, please feel free to PM me.
As you know with young horses, sometimes things look frightfully bad and yet given time for reasons known only to the good lord, problems rectify themselves without anyone doing anything.
You need to have the filly examined no matter what, but I see there is a positive side to this situation if I have understood you correctly. If this is furthest molar position on either side of the upper or lower arcades, there is only one neighboring molar to the inside. This is good because removing the sixth molar does not comprise or leave a voided space between teeth in the arcade As far as I know there are no such things as implants in equine dentistry and so when you pull a tooth with neighboring teeth you leave a void. The key here with your filly is that the jaw and arcade is not utilmately compromised by the lost of an interior molar and the void in the rear of the jaw is just bigger but less likely to collect food or weakening a neighboring molars as would occur if hemmed in my other teeth. To give you an example, when the dentist pulls a human wisdom tooth, he really doesn't compromise the arcade. Most dentist recommend the removal of wisdom teeth because they tend to crowd the jaw. That's the good news for your filly, if I understood you correctly.
The other side to the equation is more complicated because you are working with a permanent molar that is just beginning its transit or erupt through the gum. For a tooth to be removed it must be elevated and loosen from the jaw bone before the extractor can be used to remove it. With emerging permanent at this filly's age the special tool called an elevator that is used might not be able to fully grasp the crown to elevate and loosen it from the jaw bone. This means that you might be looking at a surgical procedure.
If this were my filly, I'd be very cautious and patient with what I decided to do. If the examination reveals that the tooth needs to be removed because this is a critical situation or emergency, your choices are limited. You should remove the tooth. The post consequences can be dealt with and it probably will not effect the racing of the filly. You will have to monitor the situation more closely than you would with other horses, but that is not a bad thing. I had a stallion here that had a fifth position molar removed and no one told me when he arrived. He had the same symptoms that you described and it was a mess until we got it cleared up. I had to work on him every three months after that because his previous owners left the situation uncared for and the opposing molar actually locked up his jaw movement.
Back to your filly. If the examination indicates the problem it is not critical or emergency, which I don't think it is. I'd ask the following questions.
Is there any harm to waiting and seeing how the permanent molar errupts? Is there a chance the permanent molar will erupt correctly and/or is there some procedure that might correct the transit of the tooth into the correct position? (I've been retired for a few years, so there might be such a procedure. I only floated teeth and occasionally extracted teeth so I wouldn't be surprised at any new procedures in this regard.)
If the answer is no or that there is minimal concern with waiting, I'd wait and let nature take its course. There is already a slight void there anyway with the lost of cap and it appears that when the infection is under control, the filly is on her feed and in good health. The antibiotics will certainly correct the situation unless their is another problem like a broken jaw or damage to soft tissue. If you wait, absent any adverse reactions, you can have her examined every 3 to 6 months. When she turns five without harm to her health, you can revisit the corrective procedures, if necessary. (Everyone who works with her should be aware of her problem.)
I say all of this because I'm sure the school will be delighted to examine your filly to show the students the problem and I think they will agree to working on the filly if you wait and come back later. Your filly is the perfect teaching tool. This is a good school with a great reputation, but their job is teaching and your job is making good decisions about your horse. Sometimes, the two are opposed.
When asking for a treatment options and prognosis I always demand that that I be given at the very least three options. One of the options on the list must be "let's wait and see." If a vet professional doesn't offer multiple options, I get a second opinion and rarely return for other visits.
If you need anymore information, please feel free to PM me.
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
- Posts: 4451
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
I'm thinking that your filly is in Northern California? Right?
When searching for any Equine Dentist, they should by AED Certified. It is a tough test that involves not only expert knowledge but competent manual and power equipment skills. The failure rate is high and a vast majority of those who are certified take it multiple times. CEqD is AED certified. MCEqD is a Master AED certified practitioner. I see a number of certified practitioners on the list below and appear to be near the bay area.
http://polocenter.com/dentist/dentistusca.htm
The following is the IAED website. It maybe helpful.
https://www.iaedonline.com/
When searching for any Equine Dentist, they should by AED Certified. It is a tough test that involves not only expert knowledge but competent manual and power equipment skills. The failure rate is high and a vast majority of those who are certified take it multiple times. CEqD is AED certified. MCEqD is a Master AED certified practitioner. I see a number of certified practitioners on the list below and appear to be near the bay area.
http://polocenter.com/dentist/dentistusca.htm
The following is the IAED website. It maybe helpful.
https://www.iaedonline.com/
Shammy,
No she was initially done in South CA by a dentist there, then because of her issues we went to get her so she is North ID now. That is why I was excited to get in her in to the school and they where happy to have her, but I just could not find her a ride. Even folks going that way anyway wanted to charge over $800 just for an 8 hr ride they where taking anyway. Just could not afford it at that price.
The school did say they would see if they can find someone close that can come look at her.
My worry is the infection that will not go away....we have been aggressive with antibiotics but it just will not clear up.
So the option is pulling that tooth, the broken wolf tooth, my current vet is worried she may do more damage and I agree that if she is not comfortable then we need to find someone who is.
No she was initially done in South CA by a dentist there, then because of her issues we went to get her so she is North ID now. That is why I was excited to get in her in to the school and they where happy to have her, but I just could not find her a ride. Even folks going that way anyway wanted to charge over $800 just for an 8 hr ride they where taking anyway. Just could not afford it at that price.
The school did say they would see if they can find someone close that can come look at her.
My worry is the infection that will not go away....we have been aggressive with antibiotics but it just will not clear up.
So the option is pulling that tooth, the broken wolf tooth, my current vet is worried she may do more damage and I agree that if she is not comfortable then we need to find someone who is.
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
I've apparently been confused. It appears that the problem is solely the broken off wolf tooth. Elevating and pulling a wolf tooth is the simplest of extractions. The original dentist must have really made a mess of it.
From a list of national equine dentists. If the school in ID doesn't come up with a referral you might want to check with one of these specialists. Normally a wolf tooth can be extracted with little or no sedation, but I'm guessing the filly is going to be heavily sedated to get the broken shank out.
Jed McKinlay DVM & Bob Peters DVM
Spokane Washington and Couer D Alene Idaho
509-238-4959
Mike Nield, DVM
Sunnyside Veterinary Clinic, PA 629 West Sunnyside Idaho Falls, ID 73402
Phone: 208-523-2562
Email: [email protected]
David Hayes, DVM
Equine Hospital and Lameness Center
208-286-9200
5100 N Star Rd ,
Meridian, Idaho, 83642
Don't know what else to tell you, other than the broken wolf tooth needs to be extracted and soon. Transportation costs to get the filly to dentist may the be the least of your worries if the infection persists.
I wish you the best of luck.
From a list of national equine dentists. If the school in ID doesn't come up with a referral you might want to check with one of these specialists. Normally a wolf tooth can be extracted with little or no sedation, but I'm guessing the filly is going to be heavily sedated to get the broken shank out.
Jed McKinlay DVM & Bob Peters DVM
Spokane Washington and Couer D Alene Idaho
509-238-4959
Mike Nield, DVM
Sunnyside Veterinary Clinic, PA 629 West Sunnyside Idaho Falls, ID 73402
Phone: 208-523-2562
Email: [email protected]
David Hayes, DVM
Equine Hospital and Lameness Center
208-286-9200
5100 N Star Rd ,
Meridian, Idaho, 83642
Don't know what else to tell you, other than the broken wolf tooth needs to be extracted and soon. Transportation costs to get the filly to dentist may the be the least of your worries if the infection persists.
I wish you the best of luck.