I have 3 horses down within the last 24 hrs...2 with in an hr of each other this morning. The first started with my 2 year old colt yesterday morning just before 5 am. Had normal signs of colic so we did the usually and with in an hr or so he seemed OK but still a little stressed. He got worse later on and about 1 am this morning was resting OK. But by 5 am this morning I had to beat him to get up....very smelly diarrhea. Now it is after noon and he is resting again fine and trying to eat....he has not lost his appetite or desire to drink this whole time either until just this morning, he tried but it is like his mouth hurts and he is afraid to. Walking on his own and standing for hrs now.
But at 5 when we went to feed, my 7 yr old mare was down, typical signs of colic so we did the typical routine most everyone does. With in an hr she was eating and OK, hr later back down but is not trying to roll and will eat lying down.
An hr after her my 3 yr old was down, she ate some of her hay but I did notice when I fed her she was picking at it not really eating. With in an hr she was down and rolling in her stall, again we did the same.
ONE horse is normal, THREE WITHIN 24 HOURS!!!.......well there is something going on. I have said this before, a horse just does not colic out of the blue and all colic means is the symptom not the problem.
The 7 yr old and the 3 year old have solid poop, the 3 yr olds is a bit smelly as the colt's.
I know I will get the questions on feed change etc etc, NOTHING has changed in these horses diet...so this leaves me to believe a bacteria they picked up or they where poisoned some how.
I had a mare colic years ago at age 19, never colic a day in her life and it was the day after the next door apple orchid sprayed their pesticide, she also got acute laminitis....never did it again after that, and we moved form that area.
But no one is spraying nearby that I am aware of, there are no new weeds growing in our pasture, they have been on the same hay all winter, same grain as well most their lives, same shavings, same everything.
We do have more voles this year which my Doberman got Salmonella Poison from 2 years ago because she loves to hunt them. But horses don't eat voles.
I am stumped and I have searched what they may have ingested? Something has gone severally wrong here and I have 8 more head here.
Any ideas? Also anyone have any recommendations beside the normal bacteria med's, you may use, maybe something more natural? I hate giving med's especially if they have developed ulcers, it blocks the acid and defeats the purpose in most cases. My colt is grinding his teeth bad like he may now have an ulcer....I heard Aloe Vera is good for this. Anyone try it?
And yes we have vets on stand by and have though if everything conventional....this is why I am reaching out here....some people experience things others do not and have ideas others never heard of....I love to learn new things so if there is something you know or think, feel free to mention.
Possible poison or bacteria infection
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, madelyn
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madelyn
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Joined: 17 Sep 2004
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject:
There are some really toxic molds out there that can form in just the perfect storm.
One year I lost three yearlings in one day from two separate fields due to a mysterious mold in the hay - same hay they had been eating all winter. Perhaps you could ask your vet about treating with mineral oil and then activated charcoal in case there is a toxin in there somewhere.
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oleos93
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject:
madelyn...THAT is what is stumping us. We are going crazy trying to narrow it down. We don't want to throw them back outside and it happen again or to other horses so we want to try and nail it and maybe it is something we just have not thought of. And throwing the same hay we may be doing it all over again and not even know it.
Even though they are fine now the colt took a real beating from this. And have several more that never got anything.
I never heard of the mold after a storm, and are you meaning it sits in the hay field or uncut grass and once baled no one was the wiser and was secluded to just a few bales?
I lost my pregnant mare just before Xmas, she was fine at feeding at 5 am and when we went down an hr or so later to turn out she was already dead and aborted the foal...perfect foal. No signs from her anything was wrong, but you could see plenty of signs after..I even told my husband that the smell was familiar and I belied it was from when she died....now that has be wondering, she was on the same hay these guys are now. We get to from the same farmer.
So sorry you lost horses, that is hard.
We had a car a few nights ago sit at the foot of our pasture for an hr with their lights on....when my husband finally went out they drove off before he got up there...but it made me think someone poison them, we looked all around and found nothing out of the ordinary.
But that is very interesting I will have to look into that and a preventative for a possible next time...I sure hope not because I need sleep!!
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wgc517
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject:
Just a thought could it be from something the water source?
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xfactor fan
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Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 1999
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:13 pm Post subject:
At the risk of getting flamed, blood work can help narrow down the toxins. If you suspect poison, looking at the blood may be the only way to find out.
Smelly stools could be arsenic. Which isn't super toxic and can be found as an additive in some older feeds. It was also used as a tonic for horses to encourage eating and weight gain. Again Arsenic and other heavy metals can be detected by looking at the blood.
Are the three horses that got sick sociable types? Would they be likely to go to the fence and take treat out of the hands of strangers? This is assuming the car that stopped was up to no good rather than necking teen agers. Also did the sick horses eat flakes of hay from the same bale? Or from adjacent flakes?
Anyway, good luck to your herd, and hope no other horses fall ill.
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madelyn
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:36 am Post subject:
Not everyone has Lexington vets a short ride away. The OP is in the hinterlands of Northern Idaho and she has asked for others' experience and ideas about what might have affected her horses.
Regarding the hay that "killed" my yearlings - it was bright and clean looking, with no smell other than the smell of clean hay. The molds can be spontaneous, formed from dried bacteria that comes "alive" with rain, unexpected heat, and humidity. There are also a few very noxious weeds that can severely affect horses. One in particular is Johnson grass, or actually any grass from the sorghum family, that has been exposed to frost. These weeds can get quite high in cyanide content from the frost and it does not diminish in the drying/baling process, nor with storage. Your horses could have had cyanide poisoning from late fall Johnson grass that got frost before being cut and baled. Back when I had a grain tank, one of the truckloads of loose grain had a couple of dismembered dead rats in it. My alert helper noticed a rat head come out of the chute. I called the grain company and they took the whole load back - could have poisoned my horses (botulism). Eventually I got rid of the tank - not just the dead rats but I believe the driver was "shorting" my delivery since the tonnage was not lasting as it should have.. but anyhow grain mills have pest problems and that can come home with you in the feed bags.. It could literally be "anything" - it certainly was something, though.
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griff
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject:
I had a mare come down with EPM a couple of years ago.. The first Vet diagnosed it as botulism even though she had been vaccinated saying all it takes is one dead mouse in a bale of hay.. I think the bigger problem is with big round bales and the hay can look and smell great is the critter has been dead long enough.
Later, after being treated for botulism, with no improvement. another Vet diagnosed EMP, which is a parasite spread mostly by O'possums. She recovered enough to foal a live foal but had to lean against the stall wall to nurse him..
Got a year off and dropped a colt on 04/23/12.
The second Vet did warn that the treatment would probably cause her to abort and may even kill her as the parasite is in the spine and when it is killed could become toxic.
good luck
griff
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cewright
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Possible poison or bacteria infection
oleos93 wrote:
I heard Aloe Vera is good for this. Anyone try it?
I have had excellent results with Aloe Vera juice. I buy it by the gallon at Sam's Club. I find it with the nutritional products near the pharmacy.
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oleos93
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject:
madelyn....very helpful information. In my search for out of the ordinary reasons I did not come across anything like that. This is why I do come here as some people's life experiences just are not in a book. very helpful information and something I was not aware of. I am sure now that you are packed with that knowledge if something was to happen like that with your other horses you are more equipped.
griff...good information too and that did cross my mind as well.
wgc517....I don't think it was a water source as you would think we would be sick as well. But I could be wrong. We ck water daily as mice and birds do love to drown themselves in the water tanks and I am very anal with washing out the tanks at least once a week. We are on a well so it is for just our farm.
xfactor fan....we don't have feed storage so go once a week for a weeks worth of feed and hay. So am pretty sure with the feed it is fresh as the feed store shipments come in weekly. But that does not mean it could not happen at the warehouse I guess. We go through just over a bale at each feeding so they all eat of same bales each feeding.
Yes all are very social and will walk up to anyone. But the night the folks where at the road, horses where already inside for the night. We went down and there are no signs of them hanging along that fence line. But doesn't mean someone could not have thrown something into the pasture. We started leaving our hot box on at night so if someone does come in they will get zapped good. We got new neighbors and my husband mentioned he wondered if they where horse lovers or haters. That is disheartening to think of that. I have known people to get their dogs poised from bad neighbors.
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oleos93
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject:
cewright...what is your main purpose for the Aloe Vera. I read once about it and even Licorice and Marshmallow root as being a great source of aiding in a horses digestive mess and also keeping it in good running order. This was from a Vet's web site as well....it was when my mind was closed to what elce is out there, so am interested to learn more on it.
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pfrsue
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject:
I would mention it to the feed store, not as a complaint but as a courtesy.
It's possible that other horse owners have had issues too if there was a bad batch. If it was something that happened at the mill or with the hay they have in storage, they'll want to be aware of it.
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oleos93
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Location: Northern ID
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject:
My secondary vet just told me she had a case not long ago of 2 horses found dead in their pasture. The necropsy results showed signs of strychnine found in their stomach as well as grain...these horses where not on a grain schedule leaving them to believe this was deliberant.
Very unsettling. We are secluded but knowing there is someone poisoning animals, or at the very least horses with in a 50 miles radius is unnerving.
Needless to say we are going to take some more blood.
I will mention to hay and feed stores. It could just be contained to one bale or one bag.
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wgc517
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject:
That is a scary thought.
Do you have cameras around your property? I know it won't help the horses now but maybe it may come in handy somewhere down the road or at least scare off trespassers.
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cewright
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:58 am Post subject:
oleos93 wrote:
cewright...what is your main purpose for the Aloe Vera. I read once about it and even Licorice and Marshmallow root as being a great source of aiding in a horses digestive mess and also keeping it in good running order. This was from a Vet's web site as well....it was when my mind was closed to what elce is out there, so am interested to learn more on it.
I use Aloe Vera as an appetite enhancer for horses that have a history of ulcers. My vet agrees it is helpful.
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Crystal
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Location: Lexington, KY
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:48 am Post subject:
anything can come into a pasture and urinate/defecate on the grass, in feed troughs, perch up onto water tubs etc to get a drink.. Hay can go bad, grain can mold. Horses get sick for all sorts of reasons, but you need to get the answers from your vet.
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Shammy Davis
Chef de Race: Classic
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 4418
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:33 am Post subject:
Oleos93: Studies have shown that hay mold is mostly harmless in regard to mycotoxins. That being said, mold can cause other digestive problems leading to colic. The below link has some information about that and other problems related to nutrition and feed.
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/MoldyHay.pdf
Crystal is right. The problem could be related to just about anything and you need to find out immediately what that "anything" is. What ever information you need should come from your vet or veterinary hospital or research facilities. Have you checked to see if other horses in ID have the same symptoms? Having personally gone to the extra effort of providing you information as an "expert" concerning your "infected tooth" thread, I worry again that you are not seeking the on-site advice you need. I don't personally like the tone of your responses to some board members that have responded to you as I know they are very knowledgeable and always very helpful. If they were sniping at you that would be one thing but it appears to me that their motivation was to be helpful. Although I'm not a vet, I've been involved in horsecare for almost 5 decades and it evident that you are wasting time looking for anecdotal information when you need to involve veterinary health care professionals near your horses and not in cyberville.
You need to act agressively now. Lashing out at responders to a thread you started is a waste of time and only harms the situation.
madelyn
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Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 8535
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject:
There are some really toxic molds out there that can form in just the perfect storm.
One year I lost three yearlings in one day from two separate fields due to a mysterious mold in the hay - same hay they had been eating all winter. Perhaps you could ask your vet about treating with mineral oil and then activated charcoal in case there is a toxin in there somewhere.
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So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
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oleos93
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Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject:
madelyn...THAT is what is stumping us. We are going crazy trying to narrow it down. We don't want to throw them back outside and it happen again or to other horses so we want to try and nail it and maybe it is something we just have not thought of. And throwing the same hay we may be doing it all over again and not even know it.
Even though they are fine now the colt took a real beating from this. And have several more that never got anything.
I never heard of the mold after a storm, and are you meaning it sits in the hay field or uncut grass and once baled no one was the wiser and was secluded to just a few bales?
I lost my pregnant mare just before Xmas, she was fine at feeding at 5 am and when we went down an hr or so later to turn out she was already dead and aborted the foal...perfect foal. No signs from her anything was wrong, but you could see plenty of signs after..I even told my husband that the smell was familiar and I belied it was from when she died....now that has be wondering, she was on the same hay these guys are now. We get to from the same farmer.
So sorry you lost horses, that is hard.
We had a car a few nights ago sit at the foot of our pasture for an hr with their lights on....when my husband finally went out they drove off before he got up there...but it made me think someone poison them, we looked all around and found nothing out of the ordinary.
But that is very interesting I will have to look into that and a preventative for a possible next time...I sure hope not because I need sleep!!
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wgc517
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject:
Just a thought could it be from something the water source?
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xfactor fan
Breeder's Cup Contender
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 1999
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:13 pm Post subject:
At the risk of getting flamed, blood work can help narrow down the toxins. If you suspect poison, looking at the blood may be the only way to find out.
Smelly stools could be arsenic. Which isn't super toxic and can be found as an additive in some older feeds. It was also used as a tonic for horses to encourage eating and weight gain. Again Arsenic and other heavy metals can be detected by looking at the blood.
Are the three horses that got sick sociable types? Would they be likely to go to the fence and take treat out of the hands of strangers? This is assuming the car that stopped was up to no good rather than necking teen agers. Also did the sick horses eat flakes of hay from the same bale? Or from adjacent flakes?
Anyway, good luck to your herd, and hope no other horses fall ill.
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madelyn
Moderator
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 8535
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:36 am Post subject:
Not everyone has Lexington vets a short ride away. The OP is in the hinterlands of Northern Idaho and she has asked for others' experience and ideas about what might have affected her horses.
Regarding the hay that "killed" my yearlings - it was bright and clean looking, with no smell other than the smell of clean hay. The molds can be spontaneous, formed from dried bacteria that comes "alive" with rain, unexpected heat, and humidity. There are also a few very noxious weeds that can severely affect horses. One in particular is Johnson grass, or actually any grass from the sorghum family, that has been exposed to frost. These weeds can get quite high in cyanide content from the frost and it does not diminish in the drying/baling process, nor with storage. Your horses could have had cyanide poisoning from late fall Johnson grass that got frost before being cut and baled. Back when I had a grain tank, one of the truckloads of loose grain had a couple of dismembered dead rats in it. My alert helper noticed a rat head come out of the chute. I called the grain company and they took the whole load back - could have poisoned my horses (botulism). Eventually I got rid of the tank - not just the dead rats but I believe the driver was "shorting" my delivery since the tonnage was not lasting as it should have.. but anyhow grain mills have pest problems and that can come home with you in the feed bags.. It could literally be "anything" - it certainly was something, though.
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griff
Sophomore Sire
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 3091
Location: Yorktown, VA
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject:
I had a mare come down with EPM a couple of years ago.. The first Vet diagnosed it as botulism even though she had been vaccinated saying all it takes is one dead mouse in a bale of hay.. I think the bigger problem is with big round bales and the hay can look and smell great is the critter has been dead long enough.
Later, after being treated for botulism, with no improvement. another Vet diagnosed EMP, which is a parasite spread mostly by O'possums. She recovered enough to foal a live foal but had to lean against the stall wall to nurse him..
Got a year off and dropped a colt on 04/23/12.
The second Vet did warn that the treatment would probably cause her to abort and may even kill her as the parasite is in the spine and when it is killed could become toxic.
good luck
griff
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"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
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cewright
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Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Argyle, TX
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Possible poison or bacteria infection
oleos93 wrote:
I heard Aloe Vera is good for this. Anyone try it?
I have had excellent results with Aloe Vera juice. I buy it by the gallon at Sam's Club. I find it with the nutritional products near the pharmacy.
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oleos93
Allowance Winner
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject:
madelyn....very helpful information. In my search for out of the ordinary reasons I did not come across anything like that. This is why I do come here as some people's life experiences just are not in a book. very helpful information and something I was not aware of. I am sure now that you are packed with that knowledge if something was to happen like that with your other horses you are more equipped.
griff...good information too and that did cross my mind as well.
wgc517....I don't think it was a water source as you would think we would be sick as well. But I could be wrong. We ck water daily as mice and birds do love to drown themselves in the water tanks and I am very anal with washing out the tanks at least once a week. We are on a well so it is for just our farm.
xfactor fan....we don't have feed storage so go once a week for a weeks worth of feed and hay. So am pretty sure with the feed it is fresh as the feed store shipments come in weekly. But that does not mean it could not happen at the warehouse I guess. We go through just over a bale at each feeding so they all eat of same bales each feeding.
Yes all are very social and will walk up to anyone. But the night the folks where at the road, horses where already inside for the night. We went down and there are no signs of them hanging along that fence line. But doesn't mean someone could not have thrown something into the pasture. We started leaving our hot box on at night so if someone does come in they will get zapped good. We got new neighbors and my husband mentioned he wondered if they where horse lovers or haters. That is disheartening to think of that. I have known people to get their dogs poised from bad neighbors.
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oleos93
Allowance Winner
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject:
cewright...what is your main purpose for the Aloe Vera. I read once about it and even Licorice and Marshmallow root as being a great source of aiding in a horses digestive mess and also keeping it in good running order. This was from a Vet's web site as well....it was when my mind was closed to what elce is out there, so am interested to learn more on it.
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pfrsue
Restricted Stakes Winner
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 806
Location: You can't get there from here.
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject:
I would mention it to the feed store, not as a complaint but as a courtesy.
It's possible that other horse owners have had issues too if there was a bad batch. If it was something that happened at the mill or with the hay they have in storage, they'll want to be aware of it.
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oleos93
Allowance Winner
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject:
My secondary vet just told me she had a case not long ago of 2 horses found dead in their pasture. The necropsy results showed signs of strychnine found in their stomach as well as grain...these horses where not on a grain schedule leaving them to believe this was deliberant.
Very unsettling. We are secluded but knowing there is someone poisoning animals, or at the very least horses with in a 50 miles radius is unnerving.
Needless to say we are going to take some more blood.
I will mention to hay and feed stores. It could just be contained to one bale or one bag.
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wgc517
Allowance Winner
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Location: Pennsylvania
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject:
That is a scary thought.
Do you have cameras around your property? I know it won't help the horses now but maybe it may come in handy somewhere down the road or at least scare off trespassers.
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cewright
Allowance Winner
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Argyle, TX
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:58 am Post subject:
oleos93 wrote:
cewright...what is your main purpose for the Aloe Vera. I read once about it and even Licorice and Marshmallow root as being a great source of aiding in a horses digestive mess and also keeping it in good running order. This was from a Vet's web site as well....it was when my mind was closed to what elce is out there, so am interested to learn more on it.
I use Aloe Vera as an appetite enhancer for horses that have a history of ulcers. My vet agrees it is helpful.
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Crystal
Horse of the Year
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 2690
Location: Lexington, KY
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:48 am Post subject:
anything can come into a pasture and urinate/defecate on the grass, in feed troughs, perch up onto water tubs etc to get a drink.. Hay can go bad, grain can mold. Horses get sick for all sorts of reasons, but you need to get the answers from your vet.
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Shammy Davis
Chef de Race: Classic
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 4418
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:33 am Post subject:
Oleos93: Studies have shown that hay mold is mostly harmless in regard to mycotoxins. That being said, mold can cause other digestive problems leading to colic. The below link has some information about that and other problems related to nutrition and feed.
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/MoldyHay.pdf
Crystal is right. The problem could be related to just about anything and you need to find out immediately what that "anything" is. What ever information you need should come from your vet or veterinary hospital or research facilities. Have you checked to see if other horses in ID have the same symptoms? Having personally gone to the extra effort of providing you information as an "expert" concerning your "infected tooth" thread, I worry again that you are not seeking the on-site advice you need. I don't personally like the tone of your responses to some board members that have responded to you as I know they are very knowledgeable and always very helpful. If they were sniping at you that would be one thing but it appears to me that their motivation was to be helpful. Although I'm not a vet, I've been involved in horsecare for almost 5 decades and it evident that you are wasting time looking for anecdotal information when you need to involve veterinary health care professionals near your horses and not in cyberville.
You need to act agressively now. Lashing out at responders to a thread you started is a waste of time and only harms the situation.
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bayrabicano
Maiden Special Weight
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 236
Location: mississippi
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:31 am Post subject:
oleos93 wrote:
But again if anyone wants to discuss the REAL topic at hand I would be happy to do so. And once we get test results back it will STILL be interesting to hear how someone may feel on how the bacteria or poison got into their system.
Prior to the symptoms, did you have a lot of rain or does the field for the horses have a muddy area...ditch, drainage area, mud around a leaky water tank or bathing area?
If so, it could have been from something as simple as bird poop that had the right conditions to create a bacteria bloom.
On a side note, I almost lost a few sheep a couple of years ago and the vet thought it was likely from the mushrooms that popped up after the rainy season.
http://www.horseincorp.org/Mushrooms.html
Your horses probably didn't eat poison weeds, but if something sprouted and was young and tender, you never know. Again, seeds could have come in with the birds.
http://wayneswcd.org/Equine%20Ed/PoisonPastureWeeds.pdf
My vet said it would be very difficult and expensive to pin down the exact culprit, but just to watch the others and call back if any more got sick. Anyway, I know that sheep have more complicated stomachs than horses, so this may not pertain to what you're asking.
I'm glad that all's well with everything and hope you don't have to go through that again.
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bayrabicano
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Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 236
Location: mississippi
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Possible poison or bacteria infection
...this fits right in with the smelly diarrhea and varying symptoms between horses as well as the salmonella posioning with your dog a couple of years back.
>>>>>>>>>Salmonellosis is one of the most commonly diagnosed infectious causes of diarrhea in adult horses. Clinical manifestations range from no abnormal clinical signs (subclinical carrier) to acute, severe diarrhea and even death. The disease most commonly is seen sporadically but may become an epidemic depending on the virulence of the organism, level of exposure, and host factors. Infection can occur via contamination of the environment, feed, or water or by contact with animals actively shedding the bacteria. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
more...
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... /22203.htm
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oleos93
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Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject:
bayrabicano....we have been getting ALOT of rain. I moved them from one pasture to higher pasture where there wouldn't be as many muddy areas....the dryer pasture is very dry but not 100% of course, we are in ID nothing here is ever perfect.
Feel free for anyone to jump in and correct me or disagree, but one thing I don't agree with one of my vets is, if something is not common for the area then it just can't happen. We brain stormed a few ideas and some of the ideas she said was not common for this area so highly unlikely....not sure if I totally agree with that. Is that not how the spread of some bacteria and virus etc happen in the first place? But that is just me. I am also leaning towards SP but I wanted to get some input as there are some strange things out there not always heard of.
Very interesting information. Thank you.
Still no results back...I really thought they would have called me by the end of the day yesterday. I hate waiting.
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bayrabicano
Maiden Special Weight
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 236
Location: mississippi
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject:
oleos93 wrote:
Feel free for anyone to jump in and answer or give an opinion.
If this is SP would it have been wise to go ahead with say a penicillin IV and not yet knowing it is SP and running any risk that goes with giving antibiotics with SP?
If that's what it turns out to be, it looks like you handled the treatment perfectly...
>>>>>>>>>>Primary treatment for a Salmonella infection is good supportive care and fluid therapy. "These horses get very dehydrated, with electrolyte and acid/base disturbances," Peek explains. "Fluid and electrolytes are crucial, along with colloids or plasma, if they need it. They lose a lot of protein through the inflamed colon. We also give strategic anti-inflammatory treatments." <<<<<<<<<<<<
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>"What's more controversial and a matter of clinician preference is whether adult horses with salmonellosis should receive antibiotics," says Peek. "If you ask 10 clinicians, there might be five who use antibiotics and five who do not. There are two things to consider. In an adult it's much less likely there will be whole bacteria in the blood (needing high levels of antibiotics to kill them, which is needed in foals). The other issue is the difficulty in giving a horse enough antibiotics systemically that the body will excrete enough of the drug into the colon to kill Salmonella organisms. You might think that by giving a drug orally (directly into the GI tract), you'd have a better chance of eradicating a Salmonella infection. But oral antibiotics may kill 'good' bacteria that ferment and digest feed. Sterilizing the gut is a bad thing in a horse." <<<<<<<<<<
these two sites may trigger some questions that you can ask your vet...
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... /22203.htm
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5686
and, for whatever it's worth, it looks like it could have come from almost anywhere and could happen to any of us. All the best for a complete recovery for your horses.
_________________
"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it."
- Michelangelo
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Kari
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Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 384
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject:
Coming in late on this one. My initial thought is definitely something from the feed. I would love to hear if any of the horses have a fecal float + sedimentation done in the future, and what the results are.
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oleos93
Allowance Winner
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject:
I am getting a little frustrated...I have called and left message with vet as it is now end of the day and STILL no test results back. I don't recall it taking more then 4 days before.
Very frustrating not knowing.
Kari...I'm not sure if it is feed. I to get good hay from farmers that has been in the area for 20 generations...they know hay. But it can happen that is for sure. I just get the feeling it is something off the ground.
Be glad to know and end this post...lol.
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oleos93
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Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject:
Test results back on fecal samples came in this morning. Normal on all test. High level of normal flora showed but nothing as far as bacteria on all 3 horses.
Still waiting on blood work.
bayrabicano
Maiden Special Weight
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 236
Location: mississippi
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:31 am Post subject:
oleos93 wrote:
But again if anyone wants to discuss the REAL topic at hand I would be happy to do so. And once we get test results back it will STILL be interesting to hear how someone may feel on how the bacteria or poison got into their system.
Prior to the symptoms, did you have a lot of rain or does the field for the horses have a muddy area...ditch, drainage area, mud around a leaky water tank or bathing area?
If so, it could have been from something as simple as bird poop that had the right conditions to create a bacteria bloom.
On a side note, I almost lost a few sheep a couple of years ago and the vet thought it was likely from the mushrooms that popped up after the rainy season.
http://www.horseincorp.org/Mushrooms.html
Your horses probably didn't eat poison weeds, but if something sprouted and was young and tender, you never know. Again, seeds could have come in with the birds.
http://wayneswcd.org/Equine%20Ed/PoisonPastureWeeds.pdf
My vet said it would be very difficult and expensive to pin down the exact culprit, but just to watch the others and call back if any more got sick. Anyway, I know that sheep have more complicated stomachs than horses, so this may not pertain to what you're asking.
I'm glad that all's well with everything and hope you don't have to go through that again.
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"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it."
- Michelangelo
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bayrabicano
Maiden Special Weight
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 236
Location: mississippi
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Possible poison or bacteria infection
...this fits right in with the smelly diarrhea and varying symptoms between horses as well as the salmonella posioning with your dog a couple of years back.
>>>>>>>>>Salmonellosis is one of the most commonly diagnosed infectious causes of diarrhea in adult horses. Clinical manifestations range from no abnormal clinical signs (subclinical carrier) to acute, severe diarrhea and even death. The disease most commonly is seen sporadically but may become an epidemic depending on the virulence of the organism, level of exposure, and host factors. Infection can occur via contamination of the environment, feed, or water or by contact with animals actively shedding the bacteria. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
more...
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... /22203.htm
_________________
"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it."
- Michelangelo
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oleos93
Allowance Winner
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject:
bayrabicano....we have been getting ALOT of rain. I moved them from one pasture to higher pasture where there wouldn't be as many muddy areas....the dryer pasture is very dry but not 100% of course, we are in ID nothing here is ever perfect.
Feel free for anyone to jump in and correct me or disagree, but one thing I don't agree with one of my vets is, if something is not common for the area then it just can't happen. We brain stormed a few ideas and some of the ideas she said was not common for this area so highly unlikely....not sure if I totally agree with that. Is that not how the spread of some bacteria and virus etc happen in the first place? But that is just me. I am also leaning towards SP but I wanted to get some input as there are some strange things out there not always heard of.
Very interesting information. Thank you.
Still no results back...I really thought they would have called me by the end of the day yesterday. I hate waiting.
Back to top
bayrabicano
Maiden Special Weight
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 236
Location: mississippi
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject:
oleos93 wrote:
Feel free for anyone to jump in and answer or give an opinion.
If this is SP would it have been wise to go ahead with say a penicillin IV and not yet knowing it is SP and running any risk that goes with giving antibiotics with SP?
If that's what it turns out to be, it looks like you handled the treatment perfectly...
>>>>>>>>>>Primary treatment for a Salmonella infection is good supportive care and fluid therapy. "These horses get very dehydrated, with electrolyte and acid/base disturbances," Peek explains. "Fluid and electrolytes are crucial, along with colloids or plasma, if they need it. They lose a lot of protein through the inflamed colon. We also give strategic anti-inflammatory treatments." <<<<<<<<<<<<
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>"What's more controversial and a matter of clinician preference is whether adult horses with salmonellosis should receive antibiotics," says Peek. "If you ask 10 clinicians, there might be five who use antibiotics and five who do not. There are two things to consider. In an adult it's much less likely there will be whole bacteria in the blood (needing high levels of antibiotics to kill them, which is needed in foals). The other issue is the difficulty in giving a horse enough antibiotics systemically that the body will excrete enough of the drug into the colon to kill Salmonella organisms. You might think that by giving a drug orally (directly into the GI tract), you'd have a better chance of eradicating a Salmonella infection. But oral antibiotics may kill 'good' bacteria that ferment and digest feed. Sterilizing the gut is a bad thing in a horse." <<<<<<<<<<
these two sites may trigger some questions that you can ask your vet...
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... /22203.htm
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5686
and, for whatever it's worth, it looks like it could have come from almost anywhere and could happen to any of us. All the best for a complete recovery for your horses.
_________________
"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it."
- Michelangelo
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Kari
Allowance Winner
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 384
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject:
Coming in late on this one. My initial thought is definitely something from the feed. I would love to hear if any of the horses have a fecal float + sedimentation done in the future, and what the results are.
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oleos93
Allowance Winner
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject:
I am getting a little frustrated...I have called and left message with vet as it is now end of the day and STILL no test results back. I don't recall it taking more then 4 days before.
Very frustrating not knowing.
Kari...I'm not sure if it is feed. I to get good hay from farmers that has been in the area for 20 generations...they know hay. But it can happen that is for sure. I just get the feeling it is something off the ground.
Be glad to know and end this post...lol.
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oleos93
Allowance Winner
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 284
Location: Northern ID
Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject:
Test results back on fecal samples came in this morning. Normal on all test. High level of normal flora showed but nothing as far as bacteria on all 3 horses.
Still waiting on blood work.
**************************************
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
how is the deer tick population in your area?
A friend of mine had a mare diagnosed with Lyme desease a couple of weeks ago..
There is a Vet up there that vaccinates horses with dog Lyme vaccine.. Says it will not hurt the horse and might help ??
Also last year something like you describe happened at that same farm.. They had every vet in the area investigating and also one of the drug companies.. Never did come up with an answer but it finally stopped when they decided to double revaccinate everything on the place for anything that could remotely cause the problem.
lots of bucks but it stopped and did not come back.
griff
griff
A friend of mine had a mare diagnosed with Lyme desease a couple of weeks ago..
There is a Vet up there that vaccinates horses with dog Lyme vaccine.. Says it will not hurt the horse and might help ??
Also last year something like you describe happened at that same farm.. They had every vet in the area investigating and also one of the drug companies.. Never did come up with an answer but it finally stopped when they decided to double revaccinate everything on the place for anything that could remotely cause the problem.
lots of bucks but it stopped and did not come back.
griff
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
Griff...when you say same farm where are you meaning exactly?
We got all test results back and all where clean...no bacteria. My vets both agreed (I have 2 at different clinics) that we can spend more money and do more testing but probably not worth it and they feel they just got a mild bug from something they ingested.
Although we do have tics GALORE here and my dogs are always getting tics....we go through alot of Frontline for the dogs which seems to do the job for at least 30 days but I have pulled tics off my mares, mostly my brood mares with a full milk bag as they seem to like that area.
I do not believe they are deer tics though.
We got all test results back and all where clean...no bacteria. My vets both agreed (I have 2 at different clinics) that we can spend more money and do more testing but probably not worth it and they feel they just got a mild bug from something they ingested.
Although we do have tics GALORE here and my dogs are always getting tics....we go through alot of Frontline for the dogs which seems to do the job for at least 30 days but I have pulled tics off my mares, mostly my brood mares with a full milk bag as they seem to like that area.
I do not believe they are deer tics though.
-
Laurierace
- Grade II Winner
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I am certainly not an expert on ticks but do often wondered why a kind and loving God would create something like that on purpose.
Anyway. "the same farm" is a farm is in WV and as Trevor will confirm there are a lot of ticks up there.
I don't know if Lyne is only spread by deer ticks or by all ticks.. I o know I have seen one confirmed and one unconfirmed case of equine Lyne desease in the last 30 days. One very good Vet missed diagnosed it and the second called it as soon as look at he mare.
I think, bit am not sure, there is a special blood test required to confirm Lyne desease
good luck
griff
Anyway. "the same farm" is a farm is in WV and as Trevor will confirm there are a lot of ticks up there.
I don't know if Lyne is only spread by deer ticks or by all ticks.. I o know I have seen one confirmed and one unconfirmed case of equine Lyne desease in the last 30 days. One very good Vet missed diagnosed it and the second called it as soon as look at he mare.
I think, bit am not sure, there is a special blood test required to confirm Lyne desease
good luck
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
Lyme disease is only spread by the Ixodes species of ticks. Here in the Midwest, that only includes the deer tick.
The problem with Lyme disease in horses is that it's literally hit-or-miss in the hunt to diagnose it. There are more horses popping up with subclinical infections, but so far the Titer level to establish "infection" versus "been exposed to it, but fought it off" hasn't been agreed upon, as far as I've heard and read. Documented symptoms in equines are joint stiffness, peripheral edema, intermittent low-grade fever, depression, and inappetence. I've not heard of colic or kidney failure being linked to Lyme disease in horses-yet.
I live in an area that's considered Lyme endemic, as far as dogs are concerned. I wouldn't be suprised at all to hear that there are horses in my area that are also contracting it. I'll see what I can find out about ongoing or potential studies on equine Lyme disease. Meanwhile, I'll type your eyes out talking about Lyme disease in dogs. That's where all of the study money and time has gone so far.
The problem with Lyme disease in horses is that it's literally hit-or-miss in the hunt to diagnose it. There are more horses popping up with subclinical infections, but so far the Titer level to establish "infection" versus "been exposed to it, but fought it off" hasn't been agreed upon, as far as I've heard and read. Documented symptoms in equines are joint stiffness, peripheral edema, intermittent low-grade fever, depression, and inappetence. I've not heard of colic or kidney failure being linked to Lyme disease in horses-yet.
I live in an area that's considered Lyme endemic, as far as dogs are concerned. I wouldn't be suprised at all to hear that there are horses in my area that are also contracting it. I'll see what I can find out about ongoing or potential studies on equine Lyme disease. Meanwhile, I'll type your eyes out talking about Lyme disease in dogs. That's where all of the study money and time has gone so far.
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xfactor fan
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Lyme is tricky. Can be spread by a number of species of ticks. And may be an assortment of related bacteria. Is a major pain to get rid of too, as the critter is a two stage life form--the spiral reproductive version, and when living conditions get uncomfortable it turns into a spore, and hibernates. This form is impossible to detect.
However the original symptoms in the post don't sound like Lyme.
However the original symptoms in the post don't sound like Lyme.
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karenkarenn
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I agree that symptoms don't match with Lyme.
I had really though SP and was surprised it was not. My neighbor was over when he heard what was going on as I helped him with one of his sick horses last year, they ended up having her put down, she was well in her late 20's.......he was here when the vet finally showed and was worried about his cows as we are on open range country. He is relieved it is not SP but there is not great relief not knowing anything at all.
I had really though SP and was surprised it was not. My neighbor was over when he heard what was going on as I helped him with one of his sick horses last year, they ended up having her put down, she was well in her late 20's.......he was here when the vet finally showed and was worried about his cows as we are on open range country. He is relieved it is not SP but there is not great relief not knowing anything at all.